[1643] Cannot change fallbacks in new avatar menu
tracked
DAG-XR
WIthin the new avatar menu, it becomes impossible to change fallbacks, whether it's a public/legacy avatar on the Explore tab, or if it's a Fallback avatar uploaded by you.
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Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Fallbacks are being deprecated slowly over time in favor of impostors. This update removes them from the VRChat application, but you can still select them on the website.
We'll note this in the patch notes.
Krysiek
In my opinion, the current fallback system doesn’t work well alongside impostors. The main issue is that impostors work per avatar, while fallbacks work per user, which unnecessarily complicates things.
But I wouldn’t remove fallbacks entirely. Instead, my suggestion is to rework them into something like "impostors+". Here's the idea:
- Fallback is uploaded per avatar, as a lightweight version of that avatar.
- The fallback must have Excellent/Good performance, and it cannot contain any custom animators or parameters. It also has to use one of the lightweight standard shaders.
- If a specific avatar has a fallback uploaded, display it instead of an impostor.
What do you think? This approach would prevent the creation of "heavy" fallbacks, while still giving users some control over how they appear to others, without relying solely on impostors.
るいざ・しゃーろっと
Unfortunately, the current quality of imposters is extremely poor, and there are cases where avatars appear broken or completely naked. Being able to set the traditional fallback reduces the likelihood of such “accidents.”
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DAG-XR
If putting it in Tracked, refers to allowing Fallbacks to be changed again, I'd like to thank you for considering it.
I remember VRChat wanted to bring a built-in avatar optimizer in the VRCSDK in a future update, and if this were to align with the inclusion of streamlining the upload of Fallback avatars, then I believe that may be a step forward.
SQGoukin
I'm a Japanese user, and I think removing the fallback is unrealistic. Japanese users usually upload avatars individually, so they need to keep track of a lot of avatar impostors. Also, English is not their first language, so it's very difficult to report impostor issues.
Zеkk
Response based on tuppers pinned comment.
I vehemently disagree with deprecating fallbacks personally. You lose your ability to define exactly what you look like for people with your avatar disabled, and must instead rely on an automated system that often requires a lot of tweaking to get things correct.
I don't mind changing fallbacks from the API, as I get this is a power user thing, but the "being deprecated slowly over time" worries me.
I've been running the same fallback for a long time now as I trust it to represent me no matter what when my avatar is disabled. I can't say the same for imposters currently. They must be tuned on a per avatar basis, and even then may be unable to properly represent aspects of the avatar which often simply become a mess. See the imposter of my main avatar attached below as an example.
I would prefer to be a plain reliable fallback model than a unreliable imposter.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Fallbacks are being deprecated slowly over time in favor of impostors. This update removes them from the VRChat application, but you can still select them on the website.
We'll note this in the patch notes.
nekochanfood
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community oh yeah also please let know us about that change and the reasons behind it in the next dev update as well
narazaka
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
There may be some reason behind it, but I don’t think now is the right time to remove the button.
An avatar I uploaded just three months ago has an impostor that is quite unbearable to look at. (I was even warned to change my avatar by a Quest user at Japan Shrine.)
Even if you're confident in the current impostor quality, it wouldn't be too late to announce a regeneration before making any changes.
avtr_7a2582b9-9a6d-49d8-8008-876b253415c4
narazaka
And while I was at it, I tried deleting the broken impostor and regenerating it using a version of the same avatar with only the facial expression changed, but the generation keeps failing no matter how many times I try.
avtr_63a2e7ca-20ae-402c-867b-413cf768660c
frou01
I've been wondering what Fallback is up to since the Fallback Avatar was previously shown on the avatar selection screen. What about people who just started recently? Do they not even know what the Fallback function is?
Sayamame
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Sorry for long comment.
I disagree with the deprecation of Fallback at this time for several problems on impostors and fallback avatars below:
Problems on Impostor:
- It's challenging to control the automatic generation of Impostor, and no clear documentation exists for it.
- Impostors have a low resolution and distorted appearance, which is not visually appealing. (Sadly, I still see many people talking about seeing naked/corrupted impostors.)
- Impostors are not previewable in Unity nor wearable in VRChat, making it difficult for users to test them before use.
Problems on Fallback:
- No Fallback avatars selection in the visible position. Users have to manually select Fallback section since UI 2.0.
- No way to specify "no fallback, use impostors (or robot)", which forces users to see an avatar they may not want.
- Extremely limited options for Fallback avatars. No favorite public avatars can be used even if they met the requirements.
Problem on both:
- No way to know if you are seen as a Fallback or Impostor, leading to miscommunication.
Related Cannys:
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/impostors/p/documentation-for-the-vrc-impostor-environment-component-is-missing
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/1065-feedback-include-your-favorited-avatars-as-a-quest-fallback-avatar
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/fallback-avatars-from-favorites
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/add-robot-fallback-option-for-those-who-dont-have-a-fallback-uploaded
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/impostors/p/provide-the-way-to-wear-impostor-avatar-itself
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1431-add-an-impostor-preview-toggle
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/nameplate-indicator-to-show-if-another-user-can-see-your-current-avatar-its-fall
- https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1643-fallback-avatars-linked-to-an-avatar-as-an-alternative-to-current-user-sele
Related posts/tweets:
- https://misskey.niri.la/notes/a8at2u0j8n : Because of current impostor issues, some users are considering modifying their avatars to hide them when Impostor generating.
かいざー
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
I see no objection to designating the fallback as a ‘power-user feature’, and I welcome VRChat’s policy that, in principle, one should rely on a fallback avatar. At the very least, it is unfortunate when an entirely unintended avatar is displayed to others.
Nonetheless, since the Imposter feature cannot perfectly reflect our intentions, I believe the fallback option ought to remain available. A fallback avatar allows us to convey more reliably the appearance we wish to present.
Moreover, consolidating the effort that PC users currently spend adjusting Imposter settings for multiple avatars into a single fallback avatar is a considerable advantage.
Accordingly, while I support positioning this as a ‘power-user feature’, I would oppose labelling it ‘deprecated’. Quite frankly, that is my view.
frou01
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
There are very few opportunities for my avatar's Fallback to be displayed. There will be many imposters that go unnoticed as being problematic.
Furthermore, A person's "appearance" is a sensitive problem and difficult to point out. However, they don't even realize there's a problem unless someone points it out to them. It is not realistic to rely on mutual help from users.
This change is premature.
DrBlackRat
I personally think that impostors should replace fallbacks. Having both systems is imo a bit confusing and not needed.
It's very rare that someone has a proper fallback of their actual Avatar and I would much rather see an impostor than a fallback that looks nothing like the actual avatar.
Impostors are also a lot clearer on if you are seeing the full version of an Avatar or some kind of fallback etc, as they are visually very distinct. I often times talk to someone who is using a fallback without realising that it's a fallback for like 10min. Which is a bit annoying as usually when speaking to someone I want to see their full Avatar.
ni1chigo2115
DrBlackRat
From a display load perspective, Fallbacks can sometimes be more advantageous.
If you try to implement an impostor system correctly, it would probably take as much effort as implementing Fallbacks (or, alternatively, you might just substitute an easier-to-manage Fallback avatar to serve as the impostor).
StormRel
open
StormRel
closed
Fallbacks were intentionally removed from client, but are still available for selection on the website.
nekochanfood
StormRel then you guys should append about it to the patch note or changes & fixes in ob announcement
DAG-XR
StormRel Personally, I'm not a fan of them getting phased out, and I'd prefer to see a fallback over an impostor.
EDIT: Impostor generations still do not get my avatar proportions correct, and lack visemes and gestures.
Can I change this thread to a Feature Request, please?
StormRel
DAG-XR: Switched it over
DAG-XR
StormRel Thank you :)