Feedback and Suggestions About Avatar Scaling
SpaceJackalTim
The most recent beta update for VRChat has patched out the required mechanics for avatar scalers such as the Jackal Scaling System and Mags Scale Adjuster. For those who aren't aware of them, these systems would let users go to sizes way beyond what is currently officially possible in VRChat. And as the feedback from my previous canny post has shown, to say that a lot of people are greatly affected and devastated by this would be an understatement. VRChat is a home for a lot of us, a place where we can be ourselves. A place where we can express our unique interests in extreme sizes, as of right now, there is no other place quite like it. However without any compromises from VRChat, this is going to be severely limited. I won't go too much into how truly devastating this change is for a lot of us, as I think all the comments on my original canny post speak for themselves. I truly hope the team will see the chaos and damage this change alone is doing to the enjoyment of VRChat for many and is willing to help resolve at least some of the issues we have with the current implementation of avatar scaling.
So I would like to share my feedback and suggestions for how I would like to see VRChat move forward in this regard.
I would like to start by saying that the existing underlying system is honestly a really good foundation; it definitely can be made into something truly special. But as of right now, the tools for creators to fully utilise this system are either lacking or just non existent.
- Avatars need to get the same level of possible control that worlds do. What worlds have been able to do with the VRChat scaling system shows there is true potential here; the amount of creative games and hangout worlds that have been made with it shows what could be possible. But now it's time for avatars to be able to join the fun. There are countless worlds that do not include any scaling system, but that truly are beautiful and amazing to experience at all the different sizes the Jackal and Mag scalers provided.
If avatars were able to tie into the existing scaling foundations, then ultimately worlds would still be able to have the final say in a player's size. If the world wants to outright limit avatar scaling, then the already existing systems could easily block that, or if the world opts for a Udon based approach for enforcing the avatar size, then having avatars be able to fully tie into the existing systems is going to create a way more seamless experience for everyone involved.
My suggestion in this regard would be to let avatars tie into the scaling system through the animator. Similar to how we have the parameter driver behaviour in animators, we should have an avatar scaling behaviour too. The benefit of doing it this way is that avatar scaling shouldn't be a one size fits all (pun intended). But by giving us the basic controls and tools needed, avatar and asset creators like me can make the experiences people want. This means VRChat wouldn't need to reinvent the already existing scale slider that goes to 5 meters either, as avatar and asset creators can figure out the best way to deal with the menus for their specific use case and implementation themselves. Giving the community the tools they need will allow for creativity to pave the way. As an example, take the amazing SizeOSC and some of its addons. One of the addons adds a growth ray that lets users who have the SizeOSC system on their avatar be scaled by other players. The possibilities are honestly endless if avatars are able to get the basic controls needed.
2, 3. Due to the length limitations on a canny post, I will write my other points in the comments as I think they deserve to be written out in full.
I hope the VRChat team sees that the demand is definitely there for a more expansive scaling system and feature set. I love spending time on VRChat hanging out with the weird group of friends I have. I know the size community is not a core part of the player base, but it definitely is a very passionate one. I think I speak for most when I say that I truly wish for VRChat to be the best place possible for all of us to be able to be ourselves.
Hopefully this feedback will be helpful to the team, and I would love to hear back as to what the stance of VRChat is on the feedback points provided.
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haolink
I would also love to add my bits to this: this feature is in VRChat - world makers can make use of it. It's fine if the default UI has that restriction. But yeah, much like item or drone restrictions - feel free to give instance creators the power to disable extreme scales. And if they allow it - we can do it. We - sizers - in my case on the anime side, many macro furs here, don't want to rub it into people's faces who feel uncomfortable about it - but.. in our private instances - it's really fun.. and a great experience for us.
We would love it was considered - thank you very much. The tech is already in VRChat <3 .
Shardro
This is an incredibly important social feature for so many reasons and it's something that sets VRChat apart. Why not allow this kind of thing to continue? What is the harm? This kind of support has given me some of my most cherished VR moments of all time. If support for this kind of player scaling goes away, I will have no reason to return to VRChat, and that would sadden me to no end.
To the devs: We are grateful for everything you've let us have on this platform so far, but please understand what a step back this is. I don't know what your motivation is here, but your game is about community. You shouldn't even need to lift a finger. Please, just let us have this. Let us have size as we want it. Let our community flourish.
KaylonOne
The fact that it has almost 500 upvotes and zero acknowledgement from the devs really says a lot. It's not even tracked too
Nanoscopic
KaylonOne I'd give it time, it's still the weekend
KaylonOne
Nanoscopic you're right
MicMickey_
The fact I am able to go however small or big as I want to is one of the reasons I was drawn to VRChat. It's one of the only places I'm able to meet like-minded people, and the fact that these systems might be no longer possible in the near future is upsetting.
It's upsetting that the VRC team is treating this as if it's not an issue, it's like what I do or how I enjoy hanging out with my friends isn't important.
有菜民VRC
First of all, please note that I am not proficient in English, so I have translated this text.
I wholeheartedly agree with the feedback and opinions on this matter.
Firstly, I believe that the fact that this issue, which had not been given much attention until now, was removed based solely on the development team's thinking and judgment without incorporating user feedback, is a serious problem that undermines originality and creativity.
Next, regarding demand and impact:
Our community recognizes this scaling system as an important element.
Its removal and subsequent unavailability will be extremely painful and will not simply be a sad event.
It will undoubtedly affect current user events and other activities.
I sincerely hope that you will listen to our voices once again, reconsider your decision, or create a forum for discussion.
橘花【きつか】
This issue isn’t limited to the macro/micro community—the current avatar scaler is fundamentally unsuitable for the purpose of letting users choose and maintain a consistent height. Hence the community workarounds.
There are many common use cases affected:
- People who want to match their real-life height in VR
- People who want to match the canonical height of a character
- Avatars that can "shapeshift" into a different height
Right now, that’s difficult or impossible to do reliably due to lack of precision and reproducibility.
This is a high-impact, low-complexity feature area.
While workarounds existed, something this fundamental shouldn’t rely on unofficial methods.
I am deeply disappointed in having the community scalers broken before VRChat implemented a suitable alternative. Furthermore I suspect that whatever was fixed to break the scalers is not as important to the game as having a scaler that is fit for purpose.
Phantomxz_
I love everyone's ideas here, but at its core, VRChat needs users to :
- Create avatar parameters in the SDK to allow virtually any size.
- World creators to set/unset a custom max or minimum scaling size
- Group instance creators to have the ability to override a world's scaling limits.
If a world creator only wants users to be 5 meters max, group instance creators should be allowed to bypass that, for the sake of freedom. Being disallowed to be as big or small as you want in a world makes no sense if it isn't a competitive-in-nature world/experience. Just my two cents.
Korchein
The fact that I can be as big as I want or as small as I want is one of the reasons I use VRChat. It's one of the only places where I can be who I want to be with like-minded people who enjoy the same. The VRC crew might think that they're just removing or fixing a silly mechanic or exploit. To me, it's something a little more than that. It is the way I spend time with my friends in VRChat, it's a way that I can be who I want to be, that I can be me.
It frustrates me that the team is treating this as a non-issue. It tells me that who I am and how I want to interact with people doesn't matter to them. That what I do is wrong. I was considering, before all this, getting VRC+, but not now, why would I pay a dev team that makes me feel like I'm not as much as priority as the rest of their patrons?
atolo
I also support this proposal.
Previously, there were no height restrictions.
However, the official limit is now set at 100 meters.
And now, it seems they’re trying to remove even that.
It saddens me greatly to think that these experiences might be compromised.
If this feature is going to be removed, I’d like them to consider adding a scaling function that allows characters to grow to over 5 meters in the official game.
I hope they will reconsider this proposal.
SpaceJackalTim
atolo the 100 meter limit udon can achieve in worlds is not going away. That has always been their official scaling. It is using custom scalers thay could go beyond that, that are being broken. But yeah i hope they can see the desire for their official solution to be expanded
atolo
SpaceJackalTim I really hope we get a positive response from the official side.
べるちゃそ
Sorry for the poor English — I’m using a translation tool while writing this.
I strongly support this feedback and suggestions.
If the ability to communicate and create using avatar scaling is taken away, it directly contradicts the direction VRChat aims for — a platform where everyone can freely express themselves.
This recent decision is stripping away my personal method of communication and even affecting my own future in VRChat.
I understand there are technical challenges with external tools and important safety concerns, and I respect that VRChat wants to address those issues responsibly.
However, particle effects and other visual effects create similar — and often far more serious — problems (such as crashing instances and severe performance issues), yet they are still allowed with limitations.
In contrast, scaling is being removed without deeper discussion. This feels like an exclusion of diversity and creativity, which I believe is a significant issue for VRChat as a whole.
I kindly ask the team to please reconsider this change.
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