Deantwo: World creator is not always the instance owner. You are incorrect.

blueasis: I don't see where I said anything incorrect. I said the World creator is the instance owner of PUBLIC instances. Which is a true statement.

So I assumed that Velocity_AU was talking about a GROUP PUBLIC instance, which is similar to a PUBLIC instance but not the same. But they could also have been talking about a type of private instance, I don't know.

Why shouldn't the group moderators be able to kick the world's creator from an instance where they aren't welcome? Why should the instance owner not be able to kick the world creator from their private instance?

Deantwo: I was conflating instance owner with instance master, apologies. in this case the instance owner being the world author of every public is superfluous because they are not the master, which is the important distinction.

blueasis: Who is "instance master" doesn't have anything to do with moderation.

I was just trying to figure out what type of instance Velocity_AU was in when this happened to them. But as I have made clear, I see no issue with an instance owner kicking a world's creator. Especially if the instance in question was a private instance.

Deantwo: Sorry I haven't kept up with this. So this didn't happen to me, but to a friend, and it was a Group Public I do believe, she joined to see the group, and talk to people about her world, when the instance owner thinking they were funny, kicked her from the instance of the world. If it was a private instance, Id say the ability for the instance owner to be able to kick people is fine, but I'm pretty sure it was a group public, and being able to kick the owner from a group public, even though it is a group, just seems very wrong, especially if in a scenario, people in said group public were breaking rules of the world, shouldnt the World Owner still have the ability to enforce rules on any public world? Be it Group or not Group?

Velocity_AU: I am arguing against it. Since I don't believe that it is the world owner/creator/author's job to moderate their world at all. I am of the opinion that Public instances shouldn't be moderated at all. If you want a moderated public instance, you make a Group Public instance and use the group permission system to make moderators for those group instances.

It is normal that users with instance moderation powers can warn/mute/kick any other user with instance moderation powers.

If world owners/creators/authors lose their moderation powers, in at least non-Public instances, then maybe changing it so users with moderation powers can't be kicked would be ok. But currently we have the possibility of moderation wars, since world owner/creator/author could have an argument with the instance owner, and in that case I think the instance owner should have sole power.

See also: remove-world-creator-moderation-powers

blueasis i can debunk this the world owners are always the instance owner by default they have the moderation power to warn users, kick users, and mute users but they cant ban them. but that doesnt mean they can just do whatever they want. this goes for group owners as well they can be kicked by there staff if they deem fit.

if at all i would be worried about your normal public instances because there unmoderated the most dont go after the group instance you'll be removed for acting like there staff real quick.

im more worried about the world staff using the ban panel agaisnt the group owner and staff members of the groups not knowing they can still ban players from inside the ban space. which i would advise for staff to make sure you're not in a group instance before moderating.

blueasis: Why? What if the world creator/author is a toxic person? Or the group owner plain doesn't want the world creator/author in the instance?

Making a world creator/author immune to vote-kicks or group moderation would just makes them even more entitled and screw up any attempt of groups trying to moderator their instances. Not all world creators/authors are saints.

Currently, it is possible for a world creator/author to basically blacklist people they don't like from Public (and Group Public) instances of their world by simply going to the instances and using their world creator moderation powers to kick everyone they want. If they can gain access to a private instance of any kind (I/I+/F/F+/G/G+), they can even kick people from those too.

See: remove-world-creator-moderation-powers

Deantwo: Sure. Not all world creators are saints, im giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming most are acting in good faith. I sure am!

Removing any feature that can be good because of a small "bad" minority should not, and in my opinion will never happen.

See: https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/disable-group-instance-ability-to-kick-world-authors

blueasis: It only takes a few bad apples to ruin a good thing for everyone. As a good example, ask any small community Discord server why they aren't allowing all users to use the ping, it takes only one person abusing once or twice before the server owners just remove the permission from everyone on the server.

And besides, the world creator moderation powers are redundant now that they can just use a Group Public instance instead. That way players joining the instance will also know that the instance is moderated, since most VRChat users don't even know that world creator moderation powers exist.

Anyway, this is better discussed in my above linked feature request.

Deantwo: While we dont agree; I can tell you are passionate about this! Do you think this is a feature VRChat would be willing to remove, in earnest?

blueasis: It is supposedly a touchy subject. I was told that some of the world creator communities had a heated debate about it when I made my canny post.

I have seen that Chirping_Cat has some interesting ideas about making worlds allowing a world creator to set a group as being the official group for a world. I don't know if I agree to their exact idea as explained, but it would at least make players more aware of the presence of moderation.

I guess my main point is that I don't see why the world creator should have moderation abilities in non-Public instances. But then I am also wondering why they need moderation abilities at all, when they could just use Group Public instances instead.