Remove World Creator Moderation Powers
Deantwo
Currently if you are the creator of a world, you have moderation powers in all instances of that world. Most notably, you can kick people without a vote-to-kick. This is an old rule from before Groups were implemented in VRChat, and I believe it has become redundant now. Current world creator moderation powers:
- Has moderation powers in any instance of the world (even in private and group public instances)
- Can warn users
- Can force mic off
- Can kick users
- Can see people that blocked them on Here list
- Can see who started vote-kicks
If you incur the anger of a world's creator, they currently have the ability to simply kick you on sight from any instance of their world. And if the world creator is controlling enough, they can patrol all public instances and completely prevent you from using public instances of their world. If you happen to share the same friend groups, they can even join friends+ instances and kick you there too.
With the new Creator Guidelines, world creators are not allowed to automate blacklisting of people from their worlds using Udon scripts, and in-world moderators aren't allowed to punish people using udon moderation tools unless the they has broken rules in that instance. However there are no rules saying that a world creator can't just instant-kick those people on sight using the world creator moderation powers.
I believe moderation powers should be exclusive to group moderators in their instances, and instance owners in their private instances. The world creator should not have moderation powers in public instances, in other group's group public instances, or in other people's private instances. Basically, just remove the world creator moderation powers.
There are feature requests for the exact opposite point if view too. Some world creators want more control. But those feature requests has been said to be redundant now that group public instances exist. See: moderation-tools-for-world-creators, and: allow-world-creators-to-prevent-groups-of-creating-group-instances-on-their-worl
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Deantwo
I don't expect VRChat to just simply remove this without replacing it with something else. But I seriously believe that the world creator moderation powers need to be removed.
Especially when you factor in all the huge arguments that it is already causing. World creators complaining about being kicked or banned from Group Public instances of their world, or world creators using moderator powers in another group's Group Public instance. This has the potential for moderation wars basically, with world creators arguing that they have the right to do whatever they want in instances of their world, and groups with Group Public instances being confused about why someone they didn't give permission is moderating their instances.
I have seen a few people suggest that a world creator should be able to set a VRChat Group as being official for a world, so it shows up differently in the instance lists. I assume world creators would feel that is a fair replacement.
Chirping_Cat: Do you have a canny post for that idea so I can link to it?
owlboy
Why should world authors be forced to lose all control over the moderation of their world if toxic groups decide to set up shop and dominate the public instance list?
What can be done about that? Why should a world author be forced to serve those toxic groups with just hope that it will get better?
Deantwo
owlboy: I don't understand your issue here. When you say "groups", are you talking about actual VRChat Groups, or just groups of players?
The obvious answer is: If an instance has toxic players, and muting/blocking them isn't enough, then those toxic players can be vote-kicked. If the toxic players are the majority in the instance, then you just make a new Public instance or even a Group Public instance where you can moderate it yourself. This is true for all of VRChat, no world creator/author moderator powers required.
What if the world creator/author is one of those toxic players? Then you are completely out of luck in Public instances of their world, since you literally cannot get rid of them without vote-kicking them. Your only choice is to make a VRChat Group, ban the world creator/author from the group, and make a Group Public instance.
Deantwo
owlboy: Also, what do you mean by the world creator/author being forced to serve them? The world is published and made public for everyone to use. It is literally against the creator guidelines to blacklist people from using a public world.
If the world creator/author doesn't want people to use a published world however they want, then they should unpublish/delete the world. The world creator/author doesn't own the list of public instances, and they definitely shouldn't be attempting to moderate it.
If the players that use the world don't like the currently active public instances of a world, they should just make a new instance. The same is true for the world creator/author, they can just make a new instance where they can moderate it however they want, and preferably this is done with a Group Public instance so people that join know it will be moderated and by whom.
Hackebein
> I believe moderation powers should be exclusive to group moderators in their instances, and instance owners in their private instances. The world creator should not have moderation powers in public instances, in other group's group public instances, or in other people's private instances. Basically, just remove the world creator moderation powers.
I'm not a world creator, but I would like to have this
not
changed! It's the world creators work and they should be able to do anything to there work/world they want to do. Just out of repect to respect there work i would like to have this not changed. As a group you are only guest you should get your own world if a world creator doesn't like you.Ѕnowy
Hackebein: Very shortsighted and toxic opinion.
Hackebein
Ѕnowy: You mean removing previlegedes of somebody is shortsighted and toxic, right?
If not, It's shortsighted to believe that creators will continue there work if they don't have tools to protect there work. And it's toxic to remove there previledges in a personal fight where they are trying to protect ther work.
Ѕnowy
Hackebein: World creators kicking people from their world for personal and arbitrary reasons isn't "protecting their work", it's toxic behavior and goes against the spirit of VRChat.
Someone creating a world doesn't give them the right to be toxic and hateful towards others.
Hackebein
Ѕnowy: You are right it doesn't give them the right to be toxic but that's something else which needs to be decided by the T&S Team and also needs to be punished individually and not generally. That's something which doesn't require to remove everyones previledges on there work.
I don't see any reason why i should remove somebodies previledges only because "you" have an issue with them. If they don't like to show there work to "you" than what? Just go somewhere else and have a nice day.
Ѕnowy
Hackebein: I think you're missing the point here. This isn't about the OP or me. I've personally never had an issue with it, but it's something that could potentially happen to anyone given the unnecessary amount of moderation powers being given to creators, I think this is also true of Group Publics.
Reports against creators usually lead nowhere, due to favoritism being a big thing within VRChat. Any meaningful change would need to come with something like the OP has proposed, which is why I upvoted it.
This sense of elitism among many creators paired with VRChat's favoritism has made it nearly impossible for your average player to hold any of them accountable if something were to happen.
Deantwo
Ѕnowy: I appreciate the support, but please don't get into fights. Let's all stay civilized and constructive with the comments here.
Hackebein: I guess my main reasoning is that there is a disconnect between what is and isn't public. If the world creator wants to keep total control over their work, then they shouldn't publish it for public use.
I can understand if the world creator is doing an event in a Public instance of their world and they want to moderate it. But then they could just use a Group Public instance instead, which not only give them more moderation controls, but also clearly tells everyone that this is an instance that is moderated by a group. It is s a fact that most VRChat players don't even know that world creators have these moderation powers over EVERY instance of their world.
LoppyDaCutie
Hackebein: imma make this short and simple vrchat world creators are still bound by the guidelines(this includes group guidelines there is no super ceding this) regardless of world creation, if they become toxic its up to the group owner to forbid them from joining the group.if the world owner becomes a safety hazard for any groups that want there members to be in a safe space, doesnt matter at all if you break rules or abuse your world in any way people are going to refuse your access. that's how the vrchat system works.
For example, the furry talk and chill banning there users with their ban panel (violation of guidelines creating a similar blocklist system) using a discord server with every listed rulebreaker that have broke there world rules, is not allowed. because it violates the vrchat moderations system creating a dynamic blocklist.
the ban panel also works against group staff members(also against guidelines may not impersonate group moderators or group staff) and may even get there world taken down if found to be abusing that panel system in group instances if there world is reported for such.
what i dont understand is why you guys think just because someone makes a world "for" vrchat, means they own the world when in fact that's not the truth vrchat owns your world because they could just up and take the world, and remove the world from you if they felt like it. if you dont want groups in your world dont make your world for vrchat make it for somewhere else.
so far all ive seen is rulebreakers and violations and nothing to fix any of this, just more rule breaking. then came along groups which fixed this issue and now people want to allow rule breakers by removing groups from ever accessing worlds. What goes through your head when you dont exactly think about the consequences.
heck the groups I've visited allow kids under the age of 13 to be in the lobbies and no staff or moderation team in the group is doing anything about it so my point exactly why even care. its not my group.