[893] Unusual upload with open beta client
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Jordo
Hello!
It's been twice now where I've played in Open beta (this probably only happen in very populated instances like the community meetup) and my upload speed gets MAXED (my upload speed is 1mbps and maxes out as 125KB/s), making it impossible to interact with anyone because my ping rises up to 1200+.
A theory was brought up that it was because it was sending my IK to everyone individually and it does seem to hold up, the further I am from people, the more it goes down... Is that going to be optimized?
This will kill anyone with a small connection (like me, at least currently) from joining meetups :/
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Ruuubick - Designer
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ScruffyRules
Ruuubick - Designer: How is this resolved? I'm curious because I'm one of the people who plays with 0.8 Mbps UP.
danly
Interesting.
Ruuubick - Designer
tracked
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
IK isn't the culprit here, that isn't how that data is transferred. Either way:
125 kilobytes/second is way, way below what we expect for a broadband connection (typically defined as 25Mbit). I fully expect a 1Mbit connection to have issues. VRChat is pretty bandwidth-hungry!
Is this a regression from Live? As in, does this issue suddenly occur in Open Beta, but not in Live?
Jordo
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: I've never noticed it happening in Live before, usually I would just have a high ping due to downloading everyone's avatar and then it was gone while this issue keeps happening even after all the avatars are downloaded. I'll see if I can make a comparison during the week-end.
error.mdl
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Something's amiss. Live doesn't use nearly that much upload. Unless this is somehow a bug with some other piece of the networking, it would make sense that the smoother IK improvements would cause this.
Also, as pathetic as a 1 Mbit upload speed is, that's all a large portion of rural US and Canada can get (not to mention the entirety of Australia and anywhere else that isn't metropolitan or Europe). Most people's internet speeds are highly asymmetrical. You may get 25Mbit down, but you're lucky if you get more than a fifth of that up. You're going to hurt a LOT of current VRC players if your attitude is that if they don't have good upload, then fuck them. My ISP is supposed to give me 20Mbit down and 7 up, but in the real world I only get 15-7 down, 3-0.5 up. And that's fairly typical for rural US providers.
Observer.
error.mdl: I mean they already killed a lot of people with poor internet when they first introduced the networked IK. Previously avatar downloading was an issue for most people so they would just block avatars and be mostly okay. now that is not possible.
I'm lucky here in Australia because I finally got the HFC NBN installed in my area so I'm forced now on 50Mbit down and 20Mbit up. My previous speeds for as long as I can remember were 9Mbit down <1Mbit up and that was painful to play vrchat with even before networked IK.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Jordo: Were you able to replicate/make a comparison?
As an additional note, the recommended minimum connection bandwidth for VRChat has always been 25Mbit. This hasn't changed. You can probably do with a bit less, but having a small fraction of that speed will result in very poor bandwidth-related performance.
Due to the nature of how VRChat works, the data it transmits, and the timeliness required by that data to display things in the ways and with the fidelity players desire, there isn't much of a way around it. Bandwidth is bandwidth. Unfortunately, just the way the internet works.
Enverex
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: "the recommended minimum connection bandwidth for VRChat has always been 25Mbit" - That's downstream, this post is about upstream. I would be highly surprised if most people on VRChat had anything near that speed and most of the UK is way below that.
Jordo
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: I haven't been able to make a comparison yet but I will try my best to make one soon. And yeah as mentionned by Enverex this post is about upstream, not downstream. (But I'm assuming you mean 25/3 which is the average ratio)
Observer.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: that sounds like a poor excuse. Just because you're forcing one set speed of how things will be downloaded and uploaded does not make it appropriate to push the blame on the user.
Why does the client not have the option to limit the upload or download for the unnecessary things such as IK when it was a known concern that connections speed would be a problem going forward?
As indicated the new IK can be tweaked remotely but why were those values not just the maximum that the client could use. Thus allowing the client to limit what would otherwise kill slower speeds.
You're targeting what seems to be some arbitrary minimum connection speed that you guys need to meet the fidelity we already had or that you promised to achieve, when there should be ways for the clients that can spare the bandwidth to see and send more information for higher fidelity while those that can't will just be interpolated between what they can receive and send.
Effectively if "...the nature of how VRChat works..." was the problem then why was this update to IK not also addressing the bandwidth concerns. There is no way this was not part of the feedback when networked IK was first introduced as everyone knew it would require increasing the data sent and received .