Better community engagement
ElfMom
I remember a while back, there was a popular canny post about better communication from vrc to the community.
There was a stream, and vrc triumphantly marked it complete.
Since such token efforts, communication has still remained lackluster.
So I'll try this again: but this time specify, what vrc needs is better community engagement. Not just putting out blogs and making a stream where Ron and Tupper just mouth off about upcoming features. That's all nice and good, but that doesn't really give much room for community feedback and direct questioning. Now more than ever in the era of VRC+, the community kind of wants a bit more bang for their buck. To justify that voluntary 100$ a year gesture. For one thing, that one stream where you had System on, was good. More of that would always be appreciated. Different devs from different parts of vrc development talking about what they do and generally putting themselves out there.
But consider something a bit more meaningful. The main discord is full of vrc staff from Ron down the list to Tupper. Yet their actual engagement in that community is pretty rare.
Especially
when there's an unpopular decision or action. You're lucky to get Tupper alone to say something. But I think I speak for many when I say you guys still get an D in my book on communication. What you need is actual engagement
with the community. Do AMAs, do something. Don't avoid hard and uncomfortable topics. A lot
of ill will could be solved by actually explaining your thought processes, and having an open mind about the feedback you get on it from the community at large. Because the general notion tends to be that what the community prioritizes, is never what the devs prioritize, and vice versa. The disconnect between upper management, the devs, and the community is palpable. And just makes you lot seem out of touch with what the majority of the userbase wants. Transparency is key here, something which you have always been bad at, because of paranoia over competition stealing internal ideas. (Never mind many of those ideas have already been done better by them regardless) But all it accomplishes is smoke and fog surrounding the way vrchat is developed, and a view that the devs are out of touch and don't listen at all.I guess the TL;DR here is just "you need to have better, meaningful engagement with the community" in a way that holds you more answerable in some form to the community that keeps your game afloat.
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RedSpeeds
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Hey Tupper i personally think the communication is quite ok however there are a few things that could be improved ill list them for you :).
- DMCA process is needs to be more reactive. One of my friends has submitted many DMCA's due to people misusing or straight up ripping avatars and she never gets responses and it can takes up to 3 weeks before we see anything happen. Also does not help we don't have anyone that acts as a direct line towards creators and i think that's the root of the problem which leads me towards point
- Creator interaction, When a creator gets a certain amount of following certain problems follows along I'm quite sure you received many of the same problems, And for almost all creators there is no good point of contact to address these issues with or address the people responsible for said issues, most platforms address this with partnership programs while I'm not saying VRChat should do the same they do need to have more direct interaction with prominent creators.
- Lack of moderation, While i understand this is a sensitive topic which not much can be spoken of it feels like VRChat has no moderation at all besides the help desk which can be very unhelpful in situation with crashers and rippers as you cant really proof anything. I think allowing people to apply for moderation or showing signs of life in that department would go a long way to calm the community
- The final point, Content protection. Yes its unity and yes there aint a way to stop rippers fully but that should not mean you make it easy for them, Right now its as easy as putting in a avatar ID into the api and the api happily provides me a link where i can download the compressed files. And this link is not protected in any way at least do some kind of check to verify its the actually VRC client and not just some browsers give them some obstacles but acknowledge there is no way to completely stop them
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Sure, what sort of things did you have in mind? We try our best to improve communications whenever possible. This post is good, but doesn't have any kind of specific examples.
We're also pretty dang transparent, at least IMO-- there's not many games that I can join the Discord for and send a DM to one of their devs freely. I try to answer as many questions as I personally can that don't fall into areas that I can't answer just yet.
Roadmaps are definitely something that we fall behind on. They can be tough to do-- you're setting a deadline on yourself, and if you have to delay something due to other factors (which happens quite often), someone's gonna call you out and hold it over every conversation going forward from that. It makes further conversation super difficult. We'll try our best to improve on that going forward.
Oftentimes, we don't answer questions because we're not ready yet. Things that might reveal potential competitive advantages, big plans on things that a competitor might take advantage of, etc etc. That kinda stuff comes up sometimes. Even saying "no comment" is sometimes too much!
There's also other things we're simply not going to talk about, except when we
explicitly
choose to do so. Financials, moderation actions, and security-related topics are examples here. This is due to various reasons, most of which we hope are pretty obvious.Either way, I do get what you mean and I'm interested in seeing what else you have to say on the subject.
Kosyne
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: The line from the post that stood out to me the most was "Because the general notion tends to be that what the community prioritizes, is never what the devs prioritize, and vice versa."
Addressing specific hot topic issues (voice bug, mod situation, all the highly upvoted feature requests that are as old as 2017, etc) would be one angle of attack (even if it's to occasionally check in and say 'yeah, we're still looking at this). Also, when saying that Feature X is wanted but other things are taking priority, please do elaborate on those 'other things' when able. Maybe a touch base with the community from time to time so that player wants and developer wants don't drift quite so far apart.
And to be fair, I do realize you guys are very open on discord, but for users who don't keep tabs on the vrc discord (or those who don't use discord at all) are often the last to learn about some things (and judging from places like reddit & various streams, that seems to be a large majority).
An example of the above, and I'm sure this isn't the only time you guys may have mentioned it but, last night on discord was the only time I've seen one of you guys express interest in supporting more than 3 trackers, even though as of right now the canny for it hasn't had any official replies.
And I get that. From a developer standpoint, of course you want to add more features and make the game better, that's a no brainer. But from a user perspective, they aren't seeing this, and it makes people incorrectly assume that you guys don't care, when I know that couldn't be further from the truth.
I for one really liked your weekly update posts, even if there were slow weeks sometimes. They gave me an actual place I could easily point people towards when they had questions. I would love to see a return of that or something similar.
As for roadmaps, maybe you could share some kind of priority-based lookahead? Not suggesting actual dates or anything, just something to give people an idea of what the current gameplan is. Dunno. But either way it is cool to see you guys responding on a request like this, hopefully it's foreshadowing of good things to come.
Observer․
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: you say the same thing every time this comes up. I know you said it to me. Still nothings been done. How about you guys stop trying to hide everything and actually start talking about what is being worked on, what struggles are being faced.
Why are there no blogs on progress for topics, cannys, features that are years old. Why do you guys never talk about what bugs are being prioritised this sprint, what is discussed in your recent meetings, etc. I’ve said this before, you guys never talk about something until it’s already been released. Stop giving us the “hey look at this shiny new thing” and actually start responding to the community by telling us what’s going on, addressing hot topics that are years old and giving us current detailed progress.
Let me give you another blog topic right now where communication has outright died and transparency has failed. What the f is happening with the UI update.
You also better keep us updated on the mod fiasco. What is discussed and what everyone can only hope is how you are addressing getting the features that the mods provide into the game so this does not happen again.
ElfMom
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: some posts further down have put out some good ideas, but for my 2 cents, more stuff like the dev interview streams. A good way to get the devs more in touch with the community is to actually introduce them. Have them chat a bit about what they do, how they feel about things, their opinions,
their
own gripes or things they'd like to work on vs things they need
to work on, etc.AMA's are always a plus too. basically, anything to engage the management and devs with the community in ways that actually mean something, and get the juices flowing between the two sides. It's something which obviously has gotten harder to manage as the community has grown. It's obviously easier to engage when the community is maybe a few hundred people and you can just have Ron pop into a packed Gaia Night and get an accurate finger on the pulse of the community and chat. Obviously a lot harder when that community grows to several thousands, and that same grey alien man is still only one man.
Tris The
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: typically other games don't have a discord with talking mods but they do tend to have dedicated tech support teams or have some form of pardon me but "Dumbed Down" information for the consumer market that want to know why they just payed $100 dollars to get some special camera messaging tools and pretty name tags, and not just using your cat character as a soft metaphor for your servers and just stating that your aware of the issues. What are the issues and what should we expect to see in the next month at least like where's the road map there was something that gave us an idea but now there's nothing no idea about what priority's there are or why you are updating with content instead of having all hands on deck finding issues when there are so many already.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Kosyne: There's a lot here, and trading walls of text never quite pay off for anyone involved, so I'll pick out what I think you're asking me.
(Edit: I posted a bunch of walls anyways. Sorry. Please don't feel pressured to do the same, I can't keep this up forever. D: )
voice bug
: It has sat and continues to sit on the top of the "things that everyone hates and we need to solve ASAP" list. There was a production meeting this morning where it sat firmly on the top of the list. Unfortunately, it is proving to be a tough one to track down. Putting a lot of effort into it.mod situation
: This one is delicate, all we have to say for the moment is the post we made on Discord. Nothing about our policies, TOS, Community Guidelines, or enforcement has changed. Modified clients are still against the TOS and you'll get banned for using them. However, a mistake was made, and we turned it around into an opportunity to talk. Situation is still evolving. Give it time!all the highly upvoted feature requests that are as old as 2017
: There's a lot of good feature requests on Canny, and there's some we're not really fans of. We don't have plans of labeling each one with "good idea, we'll eventually do this", or "no, i don't think so", or etc. We read the Canny all the time. I try to read all of it, sometimes it gets away from me.not everyone uses discord
: Yeah, the new UI is going to have a dedicated system for handling news and updates. Agreed on all fronts here. Speaking of which...new UI
: Did you mention this or someone else? Oh well. We're still working on it. It has gone through some iteration and we've re-approached it a few times, lots of progress made though. We don't want to do it incorrectly and we want it to be future proof and expandable. We'll have some things we're showing off this upcoming week.more than 3 trackers
: Would absolutely love to do this. That being said, there's a good number of FBIK issues we've gotta solve too. Actually, talking to some really heavy users of FBT that have used >3 trackers on Neos tell me that MOAR TRACKERS isn't necessarily the answer to better FBT fidelity. Apparently the chest tracker isn't too useful depending on how you solve for spine IK-- which is something we've got to improve eventually. That isn't to say we won't add support for more trackers eventually. We will. Don't know when, though.weekly update posts
: yeah maybe. I stopped doing those and meant to do them monthly but that makes them easier to forget? I didn't want it to turn into "oh boy here i go posting the careers page again". Didn't feel valuable.roadmaps
: like I said, roadmaps are... hmm. They're good, but hard to do right. I remember Jason from Discord stating once that if you put something out on a roadmap, even EXPLICITLY without a date, the internet in general gives you six months. After that, you're late. In all honesty, I'd rather underpromise and overdeliver than the other way around, yeah?Anyways, time for the next post.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Observer․:
same thing every time
: Yeaaah, that's mostly because things don't change! It isn't quite fair to call it "hiding", that's got the wrong tone to it. We just don't want to show off things that aren't done yet, and us saying "man, this is really hard" (in reference to the struggles bit) also has the wrong tone. I don't think we'd put that out there.no blogs for old feature requests
: Like I said to Kosyne (well, sorta said), not all feature requests on Canny will turn into features. They're... well, requests. We pull the good ones out into internal tracking for later reference. If/when those good ones turn into features, we start providing updates on those. Sometimes those links get lost, though, so maybe that's an issue.what bugs are being prioritised this sprint
: Well, now you're using language that makes assumptions on how our prod process works! :P Either way, a lot of times that's because we're not sure if something will make it in before we lock the release. We don't want to make stuff up, basically. As an example, the Udon Network Update beta test was originally what we thought was a bugfix that turned into a massive set of changes. Never saw that coming. I used the phrase "underpromise, overdeliver" in the post about this one and it really, really applies to the network update. what is discussed in your recent meetings
: That's because that's internal comms and confidential. Sorry, but no matter how transparent we get, there's some things we're not going to share.never talk about something until it’s already been released
: This is actually kinda intentional strategy? Again, underpromise, overdeliver. A lot of services, games, etc take this approach nowadays-- it makes things seem like they pop up out of nowhere, but it does make comms a lot easier. I think you're saying that's not a great comms approach, and yeah, you're probably right. I'll think on this.start responding to the community
: Can do, it kinda depends on the subject though! I'm trying my best in here, in this little microcosm of feedback.addressing hot topics
: That's kinda what I was asking for in my OP-- which ones? There's a lot.current detailed progress
: Gave some reasons above. Sometimes this is possible, not always though. another blog topic
: OK, that's a little harsh. I get it, you're frustrated. But work with me a bit, please D:UI update
: Oh right, YOU asked, not Kosyne. I'm gonna copy and paste that. We're still working on it. It has gone through some iteration and we've re-approached it a few times, lots of progress made though. We don't want to do it incorrectly and we want it to be future proof and expandable. We'll have some things we're showing off this upcoming week.better keep us updated on the mod fiasco
: Again, jeez! Trying to give you info. Your language is coming off a bit harsh. Anyways. You've got as much info as we're willing to share right now. It is a delicate situation. For the moment: nothing has changed. Client modifications are a violation of the VRChat Terms of Service. You will be moderated for using them. Our process in doing so has not changed. The thing that has
changed is that we're going to chat with some of the people creating QOL changes. As far as what's going to be discussed, what we're going to do, etc etc, we'll provide information when we feel we're at a good point.On to the next!
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
ElfMom:
more stuff like the dev interview streams
: I'm glad you enjoyed that one! I wasn't actually sure how well that rolled over. One problem (among many) with those is that it takes up a good bit of time for whatever dev member we're talking to, and many of them don't really want to do that sorta thing. API is... well, you saw. They're weirdos. They liked the pressure. Either way, we'll consider it. I would expect those to be somewhat rare.AMA's are always a plus too
: That's basically what this has turned into. You're kinda asking for a fireside chat or something. There's... problems with that? Questions get eked out, people ask things that require a TON of context and info to communicate properly, or worse-- someone asks a question that you can't answer, and you just gotta shrug at them. That sucks. I think I'd rather improve proactive
communication than sign up for regularly scheduled reactive
communication. That being said, I certainly don't mind answering questions off the cuff when I get some time (which is exceedingly rare). Maybe we could use the forums for something like this. Hmm.Also, AMA means "
Ask
Me Anything", not "All Matters Answered". You should expect to get non-answers if you ask questions we don't wanna answer.engage the management and devs with the community
: We're doing that right now! However, we're not going to toss our engineers at the wolves. My job is to handle comms and translate from you all to the rest of the VRChat Team, and from us to you.get the juices flowing between the two sides
: Can you phrase that in literally any
other way?Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Tris The:
discord with talking mods
: We don't have any VRChat moderators chatting in our Discord identifying themselves as moderators, so maybe this is a confusion in wording? Do you mean dev team?dedicated tech support teams
: We do have that! They're over at help.vrchat.com. We don't handle tech support via Discord.What are the issues
: We keep a really close tab on current "hot" Canny posts, things we see in our Discord, related Discords, and even just hear in passing. I personally keep something I call a "community pain whiteboard" with a bunch of post-its on it-- well, virtual post-its-- arranged such that the X axis is "how painful is the issue?", and the Y axis is "how often does it happen?" I keep it updated with internal bug tracker posts, canny posts links, etc etc. As an example, the "voice bug" is slammed top-left, which means it happens all the time and it is exceedingly painful. I just use this for personal tracking-- but I know our production team uses it as well to triage and prioritize efforts. ... of course, if the bug is a huge pain in the butt to track down (like the voice bug) then it can sit in that corner for a while. 😒
what should we expect to see in the next month
: Yeah, we can probably do this a bit better-- but sometimes we don't know if a feature will make it in under the finish line. I'd rather not tell you a feature is about to come out, and then the feature comes out a little late (but you don't know its late!) rather than tell you a feature is out on X day, Y month, at Z time, and then have to tell you "sorry, QA found a bug/we had to focus efforts on a critical issue/the engineer got sick, we had to delay". Underpromise, overdeliver. where's the road map
: We're trying to get another one up soon. I hear you though. It is a little
bit of the above.no idea about what priority's there are
: Good point, actually.why you are updating with content instead of having all hands on deck finding issues
: I'm oversimplifying, but properly managed development isn't about taking a herd of engineers with varying expertise areas and levels and shoving them all on the same problem at the same time, going down the list until you run out of problems. That's Brook's Law in action. If a cook can cook a big meal in an hour, that doesn't mean that 6 cooks can make that same meal in 10 minutes. Putting it another way, the people that are making features aren't (necessarily) the same people fixing bugs. Sometimes they are, when the bug is with the feature they worked on before, or something like that. But it isn't ever quite that clean.
Kosyne
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Thanks for the super in-depth responses. That you're even willing to talk here with us shows that you guys are fairly already transparent, it's just the responses take place in sometimes hard to reach areas like canny/discord/etc. The idea with an ingame UI bringing up these things would go a LONG way to solving some of the issues, so that's really good to hear. That was more my take on it, I only brought up the mod/2017 canny/voice issues as kind of example. Just 'something' that kinda semi-regularly keeps us updated regarding the VRC situation (and possibly answering community questions/concerns).
Regarding the old issue thing though, if you've determined that you won't be doing X feature, even though it may not look good, maybe consider indicating that that feature isn't currently being considered for development at this time. It's better than it sitting there and everyone saying some form of "this is a request from 20XX with 99999 upvotes but no comment?"
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to discuss all of this with us, I'm looking forward to seeing how VRC improves, both in communication and as a game!
Observer․
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: It is very fair to say your team is hiding information because by design that is how your systems currently work. The community needs to pick up bread crumbs of information to form coherent understanding of what is in the works. This is having the opposite effect. The new shiny feature or changes that popup dont look like an overdeliver, it looks like you are ignoring the highly requested stuff because there is never any mention or explanation.
Canny and feature requests: We can not see your internal tracked lists. To the public canny it appears that the majority of items get ignored. I would request more transparency on canny posts that have been escalated. Youre very scared to label things as good and bad but we want to see a wider picture of the future the devs have for the game.
Prioritisation: I refer to my first attached image in regards to how I am not just assuming your development cycle. Feel free to update the community on exactly how you do things now because all the developers and creators that play this game would love to know just how things are being managed. Please dont assume that everything the community is angry about is assumptions on how things work. We take information wherever we can get it (and sometimes its not all positive when the news spreads that way).
Not talking about things: Its getting your team into more trouble as the community is not involved. this strategy may have worked while the game was small and a year or two into development but you guys are almost into how many years now and still constantly iterating with no end in sight. Get the community involved. Break that habit of hiding information. Let us know about the struggles. Present details or technical explanations where applicable.
Another blog post: You have many methods now to present information to the community pick the easiest for the topic at hand and send it. Short weekly messages on the forum, large discussion and details in a blog, quick fire responses in announcements or twitter, etc. Find a way to make it easier for yourself to get information out if you are having trouble writing good blogs. I only mention blogs because that does look like the most time is put into getting information there and they can be linked on all social platforms, but they can also be small blogs if that helps.
UI update: ive actually asked Ron about the UI update probably months ago at this point and after so long you have been the first person to actually publicly say something about it. Show us, I dont want the copy paste about its being worked on. I know its being worked on, probably since 2018 when it was mentioned there would be changes.
Modding fiasco: The language there is that your team has always turned a blind eye to it. How many years now have people been making QOL mods and malicious mods when only this week you finally start talking to them. If you dont tell us whats going on then the modders will for sure spread that information like wildfire. You wanted a hot topic, now is your chance to be transparent with these discussions and plans.
and lastly you keep asking for hot topics so barring UI and the ongoing battle with performance. Lets see if I can create some starter list in no particular order. how about, what is the team going to do about underage players, on the flip side age verification methods to assist the older players, you guys are currently going to communicate about the server issues and modding issues, then that leaves QOL improvements, accessibility design, then its creator security such as a method to upload to a users account without the risk of being banned, vr hardware support such as the FBT, facial tracking etc. a bunch of it is ongoing issues but there are popular canny posts or bug reports that list more immediate changes that can help. Perhaps I can message you my personal questions too to see if anything is hot topic related or just pure annoyance and you let me know.
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Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Kosyne: You're welcome, glad to answer what I can.
We think the in-game UI with some more info would be good. The problem is that everyone expects a different level of info, and VRChat is full of people with varying expectations. Someone who hops into chill out with some friends every other weekend on their Quest 2 has a very different need and tolerance than the FBT-wearing, world-creating, avatar-sculpting, Index-wearing, Udon-writing, ultra-hardcore VRChat enthusiast. Somehow we've gotta address both.
the VRC situation
: the what now? this sounds like a tv show or somethingindicating that that feature isn't currently being considered for development
: well, see, that changes. Things we're not really considering right now definitely could be something we want to start working on a year from now. I'm not sure how useful it'd be to go to every post on our Canny and either say "Yeah, this is a good idea, maybe we'll implement it one day" (and then get harangued weekly with FEATURE WHEN), or "this feature kinda sucks. we're never going to do this." That seems kinda hostile. I mean, does Discord comment on their feedback stuff like that? I'm pretty sure one of my pet issues has gone un-answered for years. D: Just kinda how it is.However, I understand
why
you're saying it. I'll think about ways for us to do this where it isn't someone's full-time job, and where it doesn't paint us into corners, give info we don't want to share yet, telegraph our secret plans to competitors, that kinda thing. Remember, a feature request is a request
, not a demand. But a good number of them are good requests.Tris The
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: appreciate the response that actually clears up a lot of my confusion I would suggest having a link on the canny to help.vrchat.com or having the 2 things on the same site kind of confusing. I will take fault for not understanding some of the stuff but there's a lot of people that for some reason don't know this stuff exists and the just attack the discord server or complain about it else where maybe adding links to the websites in game at loading or a catalog of the links in discord something that grabs attention of people that are not well versed with the technical side of things I get there is alot of stuff to do just find some time to like put a button on the dashboard.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Observer․:
hiding information
: We're gonna hide the majority of information we hold. That's kind of how businesses work. We definitely share what we can, when we're ready, when we're able.I would request more transparency on canny posts that have been escalated
: We kinda already do this-- if its marked "Under Review", that usually means we've transferred it into internal tracking for more discussion. Not always. Boards aren't consistent. Blame Canny for not letting us have custom statuses. We also don't always want to transmit this info for varying reasons.refer to my first attached image
: ... The one from 2017? Things have changed a bit since nearly 4 years ago :P Ron's post is still generally right though. That was back when he was personally going through Canny, every single post, every single comment. Nowadays that's mostly me, when I can, as well as some other members of the team.Either way, I don't really see a need to give detail on internal production structure other than its pretty standardized. Priorities are tough-- we've got a large amount of items to work on. Features. Urgent features. Features we really want, but have really difficult prerequisites. Features that we really want, but are gonna take a certain person working on them, or a lot of time. Bugs. Bugs on features we just released. Bugs that are on fire. Bugs that aren't really all that important. All of those have varying priorities, and production has to sort
everything
and ensure we work on what matters to keeping VRChat working and growing. That's not a job I envy!Not talking about things:
Kinda the same as the first point. There's things we're not going to talk about. However, you have a point in that we have improvements we could make. many methods to present information
: We do! But, our information flow still has to be metered, controlled, and managed. This is tough, and we're still quite a small team. However, I agree with your point. I am just concerned that there's going to be a collision between "talk to us more" and "wait, no talk about the things I want you to talk to us more about, even if you don't want to". Again, there's some info we're just not ready to share (or will never share, like sensitive stuff)Show us the UI update
: Soon. Sorry, really, I can't show you things yet. I'm not going to go grab the new UI project, take a screenshot, and dump it randomly. That isn't how this works. :PModding fiasco
: As we noted in the announcement, we're talking with some selected authors of client modifications. They've been asked not to share anything from the dialogue unless we OK it. There's been agreement. If that breaks, then discussion stops. That's a pretty standard "gentleman's agreement" not to disclose, so I'd really be disappointed if potentially super helpful discussion would stop because of that.Modified clients remain against the Terms of Service, and we'll still moderate for them. If you report someone using a modified client, and the investigation proves that they are, then they'll be moderated. That's how it has always been and how it'll remain.
You wanted a hot topic
: Ehhh, not this
hot. You're still kinda being harsh. Chill out, I'm trying to help you. I'm very tired. I just wanted a nice, quiet long weekend. Why can't I use the :dead: emoji in hereanyways, speed round, let's go
age verification
: you basically asked the same question twice. hard problem. every
company on the internet has to deal with it. its just more visible here because ubiquitous voice chat. we're aware of the issue. solutions are in development. no public eta.server issues
: post mortem is on the way out, tl;dr preview: growing painsmodding issues
: see above, in progressQOL improvements
: yea i want thoseaccessibility design
: yea i want thosegiving other people avatars via upload
: yes i want thatfbt
: more trackers? yes, definitely want it. No ETA. would like for FBIK to be a bit smoother and less janky first-- dancers and hardcore FBT users state that MOAR TRACKERS isn't necessarily the solution. is that what you mean? we have FBT.facial tracking
: would be cool to have it, would be even cooler if it was codified in a standard such as OpenXR so we don't have to implement 20 different third party SDKs, that's a nightmarethe rest doesn't seem like addressables so I'll leave it at that
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Tris The: Actually, we can kinda put them on the same site... we use a different service for our helpdesk which has a feedback option. We'd have to migrate our feedback and bug reporting site there. that sounds like a lot of work and a lot of potentially lost posts. eugh. i'll put the help link in a few places.
Observer․
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: If youre comfortable answering questions like this then might I suggest holding an AMA either through discord or reddit every so often to just answer as many questions as you can from the community. On discord you can open a public channel called Questions, and then you and the team can do what you did here in a locked channel called Answers for quoting the question, tag the user and answer it. Reddit has their own inline reply system. (of course locking the Questions channel when the allocated time is up).
---
That picture was to show how I was not assuming the workflow. I mean anyone could have picked that up by following the open beta updates anyway.
Thanks for the responses. They dont go unappreciated. Youve answered a bunch of my questions already.
Meant to combine the fbt and hardware support where competitors have this stuff implemented right away and there is never any discussion or announcement for why its not supported yet.
I didnt mean for you to respond to me on the list of topics, that was for you to take back and see if you can address them in for example a blog post. Now people need to first find the canny, see this thread, and make through the wall of text to get those answers. You see what I mean about breadcrumbs.
If I wanted you to respond to my individual topics I would mentions things like the memory leaks, av2.0 idle animation transition bug, camera interaction bugs, oculus hand position that was fixed with the av3.0 release but reverted because of the vive wands, etc. I've given up on the small things because I report them and get nothing in return.
Kosyne
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: "FBT-wearing, world-creating, avatar-sculpting, Index-wearing, Udon-writing, ultra-hardcore VRChat enthusiast"
I feel personally attacked lol.
But yeah, I get you for sure. And by 'situation', was sorta using that for shorthand for news, answering community questions/concerns, etc.
As for the canny requests and such, agreed, that's definitely a tough area, but I do think it being tough is just a sign of how important it is to so many people; any kind of improvement in transparency (and consistency) there I'm sure would go a long way.
I rattled on quite a bit here, but thanks again for this discussion, it's been informative.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Observer․: You know, Discord has that new Stage function, we might use it as soon as it opens up to more than 1000 people. We'd probably fill it. Definitely worth trying.
competitors have this stuff implemented right away and there is never any discussion or announcement for why its not supported yet
: Oh, this one's super easy. Our competitors don't have to support 40k+ CCU peaks that grow by 2k each week. D: We aren't as agile as Neos and Froox, just to use an obvious example, for that reason, as well as them being a lone developer (or a very, very small team, I'm unsure if the dev team is larger there or not). Once you get bigger, things definitely slow down and priorities have to change. That's why. (Froox also has a different goal with Neos than we do than VRChat.) It's also why I noted that it'd be great for a standard to be set up, like OpenXR bindings. That way its way easier for us to support basically everything of X type with one fell swoop.for you to take back and see if you can address them in for example a blog post
: That'd be a really odd blogpost, though. "Here's a buncha stuff Observer asked us." slaps down a bunch of answers
. 🤔I get what you mean, but your questions (and other's questions) cover such a huge gamut that it'd be impossible to do that. Part of the challenge. Q&A or forum posts could solve that, but you should expect us to dodge questions that we don't want to or can't answer. That's kinda part of the deal.
If I wanted you to respond to my individual topics
: I can do that, surememory leaks
: We don't really have any that are popping out at the moment. You're probably thinking of this though: if you sit in the same world for hours and people come in and leave, change avatars, etc, you keep all those assets in memory. that's not a memory leak, that's how Unity works. You can't unload assets unless you switch scenes (worlds). Can't change that. I posted this in the giant "memory leak" Canny like a week or two ago.av2.0 idle animation transition bug
: Don't know about this one but honestly AV2 is in "legacy, eventually deprecated" mode. I wouldn't expect us to put much work into it at all, considering how many other things we need to worry about. Sorry :Scamera interaction bugs
: You mean how hard it is to push those damn buttons? Yeah, they suck. We want to redo the camera, so it'll be fixed then.oculus hand position that was fixed with the av3.0 release but reverted because of the vive wands
: ... is this on a Canny post anywhere? Link it. Haven't heard of it.Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Kosyne: Glad I could be helpful! Your input has been really enlightening, thanks for remaining civil. We try to communicate as much as we can.
SapphireSouls
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Is there any potential solution that could be brainstormed for this 'memory just gonna keep filling till you world hop' issue, though?
High traffic public worlds in particular are almost guaranteed to crash you if you spend much longer than 1 hour in them, with people popping in and leaving the specific lobby you're in constantly.
Saying "Well, that's Unity for ya!" is kinda just shrugging it off and giving up on it. I think most people would agree that the fact an avatar isn't unloaded from memory as soon as someone switches out of it is a pretty dirty thing in of itself. Garbage collection is super important in a game where everyone has their own unique uploaded model that needs a piece of your RAM.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
SapphireSouls: Nope, not really. This is part of how Unity works. There's (as far as I know) literally zero way to tell Unity "hey, you need to clear old assets out, do it now" unless you load scenes.
a game where everyone has their own unique uploaded model
: This is pretty much exactly why you see the issue in VRChat and not any old generic Unity game-- the devs of a standard Unity game know what's being loaded into RAM and when, and could even calculate a maximum RAM usage. We don't get that. Our upper bound is infinity. :SSapphireSouls
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Thank you for the response. I think you need to get some heads together to brainstorm some solutions, however. Even if it seems impossible.
Considering this is a social platform more than a 'game', it's really bad and should definitely be up there as a priority fix. It shouldn't be considered remotely acceptable to have to either accept eventually crashing, or keeping an eye on traffic in the instance/checking task manager/RAM usage constantly and having to exit and re-enter the same specific instance every 30-60 minutes.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
SapphireSouls: I appreciate the effort and gusto, but from what I understand, "fixing" this would require modifying Unity source. We don't get to do that.
Observer․
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Not me specifically. you said you have a "pain board" and you also want people to tell you hot topics to address. so start listing off things that would be great for making a giant "community communication" blog of sorts. Im trying to give you topics to address to a wider audience because youve acknowledged how bad the communication is but you are not understanding what I've been suggesting because you just try to answer it directly to me and not have a single place for FAQs.
most of the stuff that are individual to my questions are small bugs that have never been fixed which is why I didnt bother asking about them in a general community communication related thread because Im aware of priorities. Its really hard to search for my posts in the canny because it lumps my upvoted stuff under my own which is ridiculous.
Memory leak: exactly what im thinking. nothing gets cleared, and to be precise here, not everything is cleared when you change worlds either. With the right Unity license you can get a hold of the source code so thats not a valid excuse. Better yet getting unity involved in fixing this would benefit all unity developers. When the game uses 20GB+ of RAM and 11GB+ of vram there is a huge range of lower end hardware where vrchat will just crash on which should be solvable because this memory issue is reproducible.
av2.0 stuff: you guys fixed a bunch of things related to emotes on av2.0 but the thread was a mix of multiple issues. one of those issues that was never fixed was the animation transition from emotes, walking and opening the menu. It does not transition instantly, effectively freezing and or looping for a few seconds breaking dynamics and animations. It broke somewhere around the av3.0 update but appears to be ignored as you said you didnt even know about it. My comment in here points to the original issue, https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/opening-menu-or-moving-causes-legs-to-freezeglide-in-place-for-2-seconds
Camera: we know you want to fix the camera but you guys have never addressed my SDK interact bug that directly affects camera interaction. you all wonder why camera interaction is so bad. go stand inside a vrc_trigger and try using your camera. https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/putting-an-oninteract-trigger-inside-a-vrctrigger-volume-makes-it-impossible-to .
Oculus hand position: the search function on the canny is not bringing up the canny posts about controller position not matching. I know they are there. Pretty sure this was something discussed with hackspanner. He should know about the fix but might not know that it was reverted when the vive stuff was reverted. For the first two weeks of the av3.0 release the wrist position was correct for oculus controllers and my guess is all controllers. Now its back to how it has been for years, to far forward into the fingers.
This is getting off topic now as its no longer a general communication comment. I appreciate your responses but you do not need to reply to this one if you do not want so you can have a rest from keeping track of every conversation here.
SapphireSouls
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Literally any workaround would be preferable to inevitably crashing and having to take off your headset to reboot your entire VR environment. Add checks that disable further avatars loading once memory is across a certain threshold deemed too high? Shrugging this off because 'it's unity's problem' is really stupid, no offence. It's a major stability issue with your platform and addressing it in any shape or form should be a top priority.
Ozzy Helix
we need VRChat and its Devs admins and mods to be more transparent with its users in terms of changes rules what VRC+ funds are spent etc.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Ozzy Helix: As noted above, we don't disclose financials (such as "where does VRC+ money go?"). This is pretty standard practice.
Whenever we change the rules we make best efforts to inform users. If the Community Guidelines change, we notify via Discord, Twitter, blog posts, Steam posts, etc.
When we change the ToS, you get a pop-up that you have to accept the TOS again on.
Tris The
Not only do we need better community engagement we need clarity of what is being done and what our funds are being used for. In all honesty though I did the math with how many people presumably bought vrc+ and the funding from that and its barely enough to cover worker pay and server expenses and the fact that oculus pulled out of the loan deal thing says they need more money. If they would just up and say that they might just get the support they need to get proper server hardware and maybe licenses for better game engines with proper network nodes to work off of and better access to HDRP or whatever this game needs to work better.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
Tris The: As noted above, we don't disclose financials (such as "where does VRC+ money go?"). This is pretty standard practice.
Tris The
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community:thanks for doing it anyways with the regions thing
KylePoopsMcGee
This. 1000000000000000000000000000000000%