Users sitting in local avatar stations do not sit properly
complete
Cibbi
In your rushed attempt of removing fun from us, you actually managed to break the chairs.
Let me go more into details: Now locally every person who sits in your avatar stations is not considered in a chair, this has 2 major game breaking outcomes:
1) not being considered in the vrc station causes the position of the person sit on it to be locally delayed quite a bit cause it waits for network ik (about 1 second delay)
2) not being considered in the vrc station causes standing override animations being played instead of the sitting ones locally (also custom animator overrides put into the vrc station are locally ignored too)
These issues can be seen by the wearer of the chair avatar, not by the one who sits on it.
I consider this issues being severing enough to make the vrc stations not worth to put in an avatar anymore, making the only new feature of avatars in the last 2 years void.
Also kinda demonstrates how the dev teams wants to remove fun features without really caring about the bug itself, since this update made in fact chairs more broken than before.
Log In
Aev
complete
Resolved in VRChat 2019.3.2p2.
Cibbi
Aev: can confirm that the issue is solved now, next time i suggest to check before updating, one less issue for us, one less build to broadcast for you guys.
Matt H Pearson
fact they wont let us fly still proves the devs are butthurt due to big gey. its not our fault that they let game world creators bend them over and stretch their anuses. if flying is cheating in a game world, give the developer a world modifier to dissallow avatar seats entirely. dont remove features that people thought were actually fun and awesome. add a feature to control its use, otherwise people like me are gonna complain.
Insert
Man I sure do love it when the player base finds something cool that they can do, the dev team removes said cool thing, and then breaks what it was originally supposed to do in the first place :^)
Cibbi
Just to be clear to everyone: the post intention is not to bring back self chairs (i mean i wouldn't mind it but not really the intention) and also not attacking any member of the dev team personally, but bringing out in an intentionally "not too nice" way (i can't be bothered to be nice anymore) the poor decision making that ended up into effectively generating more bugs than fixing them. If you have to fix something, at least to it right and don't rush it for whatever reason.
AlphaSatanOmega
Time to dig into my pocket and toss in another coin into this wishing well of forgotten dreams they call the Canny. Not that I expect any result to come of this, as the words we throw away here land only on deaf ears; but rather to be used as an outlet for my frustration. As well as a way to converse, learn from, and teach others who actually have the capacity for reasoning.
The developers are incompetent.
In every conceivable way the developers, time after time, have made changes to this software that don't understand the wants and needs of their users, that only continue to damage the integrity of their user base, their software and their brand. They continuously stumble over their own feet just to maintain a false front of competence, when their software is visibly falling apart at the seams. Every time they develop and release new updates, they are only ever focused on their own or someone they can profit off of's vision. And despite the overwhelming outcry of the user base that even provides the legs for this software to stand on, it is always met with ignorance or dismissal.
As much as they preach mantras like "Enabling expression" or "enable creativity", they almost certainly do not mean it. At every turn of a user trying to freely express themselves or be creative, they are met with rules to every exception, and an exception to every rule.
The front they seem to display every time people try to do something creative is;
"You can be creative, if and only if it is in our vision of creative."
And when users work outside their vision, the developers scramble to stop them at all costs; which is when instances like this arise.
In their scramble to maintain totalitarian control over their user base, and thinking they know what's best for their users, they break more than they fix. They break features, such as user avatar chairs, then either don't bother fixing it, or provide a less than desirable alternative.
This in turn imposes more limits on what an individual user can be creative with. Obviously the vicious cycle of any software development is fixing bugs causes bugs, but garbage in equals garbage out, thus when they rush to mend some minuscule bug they don't like, they cause more problems than they fix due to them only focusing specifically that one bug in that one scenario, rather than invest time and effort to implement a fix that doesn't ruin the feature.
Then after implementing the fix as soon as possible, they make false promises to "properly implement" it in the future. Which almost never seem to come to fruition, or if they do, are nothing like the initial request, and are often better left untouched. In addition to these false promises, they seem to act as if they care about some minority group of users the bug could have affected. Then they almost immediately turn their backs and do something that negatively affects and limits that group's creative abilities. For example, the "World Author's point of view". They plead as if this chair station bug was greatly "limiting" their ability to create user experiences without worrying of a user interacting with it in an unintended way. As if now that this was discovered, that all users wouldn't be interested in the experience and just clip through everything, as if every user would just cheat a game, given the chance. Not to say no one would of course. But even though this was and is still possible in other forms, such as modded clients, or collider surfing; which are just as easily accessible by any user, suddenly this bug discovery that people were gaining a new form of enjoyment out of, will somehow ruin the world creation scene on a global scale. Yet the only "limits" visible for world authors are the terrible quality of tools actively available to them, and all features they break by sitting on all the new bugs that come with updates, only to be fixed some time far into the future. The only limits to world authors are imposed by the developers. Also with how the development cycle of this software has been since its inception, especially at its degrading quality over the past few years, there is doubt that the grand promise of the "Udon" node graph scripting system will live up to the hype they are generating for it. Nor will it be any different from any other content they release.
In all, this evidence provides proof to the statement that the developers of VRChat are incompetent. They ignore the and refuse to understand user base that granted them popularity, enforce restrictions on the creativity they falsely advertise, stumble over their own feet trying to maintain total control, and provide false promises while shielding themselves with some pathetic form of pity. All this clearly shows that the VRChat developers are completely and utterly incompetent. Though, this should stand as a permanent vision of them, hopefully one day they realize the importance of listening to and communicating with their user base, and attempt to work alongside them to work towards developing a better user experience overall.
Addendum: I encourage anyone to provide me information I may lack or have missed, point out flaws or falsehoods in my argument, or create a well structured rebuttal to my points. As I said at the beginning I would like to see what others think, and either learn from or teach them. I am open to discussion.
B
Besa
AlphaSatanOmega: unfortunately it's always gonna end up the same way. The dev team is not gonna fix anything, people will eventually forget/not care about their broken updates anymore and creators will still deliver free content for the game. It's only gonna get worse, at this point I don't know if the community manager is at fault at not understanding what the community wants or if the other devs are not listening to him.
AlphaSatanOmega
Besa: To add to what I had stated, I do have doubts that anything they release will be acceptably functional, but I would not like to always have this predisposition. It is undeniable, that sometimes there is considerable effort put forth, that is visible, to provide acceptably functional features to the software (not to deny the flaws that inevitability come).
Say for example the audio system overhaul. They spent a good amount of time, developing and testing a feature that was of some priority to VRChat. It worked pretty well, and improved many aspects of the audio system which had issues beforehand. Of course there were still issues with it, and new issues that arose, but they did indeed ship an acceptably functional update. What is disappointing however is that once they finish a large update on one aspect of the software, it gets pushed to the back burner, seeming as if they believe it is a perfect product. Then only half a year or more later do they work on any updates to fix or add to that aspect.
And yes, people will settle soon and the cycle shall repeat again. And users will keep making content, because that's what they want to do, and this is the only place that meets their individual needs. But it is infuriating when this dilemma happens time and time again, because again, it limits their ability to create content.
Finally, from what I've observed, and conversed with others, it almost seems as if their is no, or very little order in the hierarchy among the VRChat team. This seems to lead to both the disconnect between the community and the team, and technical chaos between different systems within the software. Though I can't be entirely sure about the validity of this, but there is an apparent disconnect.
Edit: And as of 8:45pm EST 2-10-019, colour me surprised that they actually attempted to fix this issue. Still remain to see if all issues caused by the previous patch were fixed.
ImTiara
Looks like this post is going to be ignored from the dev team, like most all essential requests from the community! Why does this canny even exist in the first place?
The devs must really want us to use modified clients instead of using the game mechanics to have fun in this social sandbox!
Cibbi
ImTiara: i mean, is not even been up for a day. even responsive teams would take more to give answers.
Not going to say that this won't be ignored (honestly will likely be), but too early to say that.
Legoman99573
Cibbi: When I see cool stuff removed, I think the devs are pushing the avatar creators to the side just to appeal to The Great Pug or Open Mic Night worlds without any replacement. But yeah, chairs are now broken if they have animations on them using finalik to disable the network ik on the avatar till they get off the chair.
Legoman99573
This was a fun thing to have, just fix the colliding issue and boom, a new feature for us to enjoy, but it shows how the devs like to take away fun from people and its quite depressing as there is no workaround for the feature and now space avatars are quite useless now. CONGRATS DEVELOPMENT TEAM. You can't determine what is fun that comes from a bug as other games used an unexpected bug as a feature, but VRChat be like "NO" because you couldn't just animate a station to move outside a collider if you choose to do so.
Now to wait till you destroy colliders on the bottom of the avatars to abiterate 2+ years of flying avatars from most of us and consider it wasted time like this unexpected bug we didn't want patched.
G
Glixzium
Kinda wish you put this out there in a more neutral constructive tone much like Lin's original post. I'm hesitant to upvote something that is clearly rife with more than discontent for the occurring bugs. I personally have no hate for the Dev team, and if you ever happen on a chance to meet a member you might realize that while this is a creative sandbox engine to allow player created dreams become reality. This entire game is their creative process.
The game runs on sponsors alone, tries to push new things for vr constantly, and when they patch unintended features like this, they never once say it's forever gone. Putting chairs on avatars alone used to be patched out until they found the time like now to /start/ implementing it in ways that won't break worlds.
The key focus on worlds being bigger than avatars stems from the fact that it's always been their focus. They never believed that avatars would ever be more than just a model with expressions. And they worked tirelessly during the knuckle release to allow us to retain the feature to trigger things via gestures, which a dev admitted was never intended.
So instead of blind hate for the team, just show discontent for the removal of this, and keep asking them to find a way for it to be added. Which Tupper said they would look into doing so when they find a way for map authors to allow such things in their maps. As while avatars are great for person expression, maps will always receive more attention due to them being critically vital. Can't find people to hang with if map creators won't make maps from being unable to set restrictions. Whats the point of a horror map, or jump puzzle if you can just fly out of bounds, or over obstacles.
RetroGEO
Glixzium: You can already do those exact things with chairs as they are with literally any other person or even colliders still. You seem to have missed the entire point of the other canny which was to give map creators the ability to disable stations in their worlds if they so choose.
Believing the developers when they put out flimsy excuses like the one Tupper gave is exactly why we feel as pushed back as we do, cause they never make good on them. We've been waiting on so many simple fixes to things for over a year and have gotten nothing but existing work removed. This isn't blind hate, it's response to continued abuse and so many people wouldn't have upvoted that if it were an unpopular or unfounded opinion. How am I supposed to have faith in someone who has yet to put out a single working solution to a problem they've caused. I can't and won't at this point.
Further, whether your dumb ass agrees with the wording is irrelevant in this case since it's an actual game breaking bug they caused and it needs to be fixed. I would expect it to be fixed with or without this canny but it's great that this is here so they can see the community response to their actions. Again.
If we seem upset it's because we are.
lin
Glixzium: A problem I have is that there isn't really any compromise to world creators going on. This is just a purely negative thing to happen to avatar creators, being justified as empowering world creators. The not hostile, not insane thing to do would be to let people enjoy the mechanic until it organically becomes obsolete via new features. Avatar creators and their interests are severely undervalued and dismissed, when truly we do not have big asks. The excuse I keep hearing to not improve things, and to not leave avatar creators alone, is that there will be a proper supported version of things in the future. In my opinion that is a bad way to appreciate the way people play the game now, and I'm personally offended at the lack of flexibility to accommodate players that have been generating free content for the game for years. I'd argue that avatars are the main attraction for this game. It doesn't seem like a good idea to neglect your game's base by not doing easy things to improve their experience, even if the things done are transient or imperfect. The promised features and support are coming too slow, the reasonable thing is to do the incredibly, laughably easy things to improve our time while we wait 2 years and give vrchat content.
RetroGEO
It actually is which is what makes this whole thing so dumb. They've said as much themselves.
H
Hebiko
Glixzium: Seems there always has to be the one person that says 'Oh, it's not the devs fault that something broke, don't be so harsh on them'.
We've been through so much of this crap already, they break far more things than they fix or add most of the time, and you are confused why people seem to be hostile? Hmm.
lin
I don't think they know a clean way to remove collider flying without side effects to a lot of content. I think with the station thing, they thought it would be easy to fix without affecting a lot of content.
lin
Glixzium: "Whats the point of a horror map, or jump puzzle if you can just fly out of bounds, or over obstacles."
I want to point out that you have complete control over yourself, the instance, and the people you associate with. You should be able to come up with the necessary consent to navigate a map without cheating.
G
Glixzium
Hebiko: All I'm saying is that we have an ideal image of what we want, and they have theirs. I never said not to give complaints, as that's obviously the only way for us players to push for the features we want/need in the game. Blatantly throwing hate at the team that's responsible for making the game isn't going to make them inspired to give the players what they want. You're encouraging a despaired system of Give the players what they want, or make the players hate us for building the game we dreamed of. With no reward for compromising since it's either straight hate or praise.
If you were creating something, anything, and had other critiques, you wouldn't want straight blind praise, but nor would you want straight unadulterated hate. The best critique is one done with cold intuition.
People's outrage is of course verified. But there's a difference between telling a child they did wrong and yelling at them to think about what they did.
RetroGEO
Glixzium: We've tried your approach so many times and we're sick of it. Excuse us for changing things up to at least get a response. They are the ones at the heart of it all making us feel inadequate enough that we have to either respond with outrage or begging. For the record, begging has never worked.
What got the particle limit changed? Outrage.
What got the chairs on avatars in the first place? Outrage at their removal.
What got the audio limit changed? Community outrage.
This is behavior they perpetuate and if they can't see that then they're incompetent enough that I wouldn't want them solving our problems after all cause they would just make it worse.
The most frustrating thing is that there are people here who know as much about unity as they do who could help them create some organic solutions if only the team would get over their pride and actually listen to them. These are the people these decisions drive away.
G
Glixzium
lin: As I said Hebi ko, being personally slighted, outraged, or anything really by this is understandable. Could the Devs do better? Always. Same as anyone could always do better doing something or other.
I just feel it's rather ignorant of us to just assume it's that easy, when we already know VRChat is already running a ridiculously outdated version of Unity to begin with. They as devs do have their own personal views on where the game should be heading, but that's why it's important that I stress how we reply.
Your original post was a perfect way to do so, it's just sad to see it was basically sidelined, but that was no fault of your own. You were calm, used logic, and created deductions or how it would affect not just the creators of the avatars but the community as well. You even offered an compromise solution to make a good middle ground for both content creators.
I apologize if my original post had some personal stigma, or seemed like it was just praising the Devs. There are definite things wrong with the game, but seeing as it's still Early Access, and likely will be for a while, this is prime time for us to come together and really show and tell the Devs what we want.
I just don't think doing so with clear aggression is going to accomplish anything. Since hate will always lead to more negative emotions, and will push the Dev team further from listening to us.
G
Glixzium
RetroGEO: Hum, it's slightly amusing that you claim a citation issue on my end, but miss the point of my post largely revolving around the discontent for blatant hate, instead of constructive discontent.
Yell at a child, they won't listen, tell them what they did wrong, and show them what not to do, and they suddenly understand things anew. (Yes I just compared the Devs to children. Take that as you will.)
Show them how much you dislike this. But the more you push negative reinforcement, you're only going to distance the Dev team from listening at all.
But I digress. My original post does come off as praising. I allowed myself to throw in unneeded comments that would have been better left out.
RetroGEO
Glixzium: I speak my mind and that's often abrasive but at the center of whatever I say is my passion for this community. Something the developers clearly lack. Before the change many of us actually were in a lobby with the developers explaining why this should be supported and how to do so and tuppers response is a blatant slap in the face towards the effort that went into doing that. We tried calmly explaining ourselves and giving them our own outline to go forward with which would benefit both of us and here we see it was absolutely pointless.
Naturally we would try the opposite approach.
This was such an utterly predictable move that I had it down to the exact date that it would get removed and how they'd go about it and was correct.
H
Hebiko
Glixzium: I'm more than willing to compromise and be understanding with the devs, but that hasn't gotten the response we'd expect it to. There are so so so many posts on this canny of feature requests, fixes, changes, etc. that would be easy to implement and beneficial to the game as a whole, and they have been here for far too long. The devs seem keen on only marking entries that they already planned to add in the first place, and the rest go seemingly ignored. I understand they can't add everything and some are unreasonable, but there are plenty of QoL changes that have been upvoted to oblivion and have been around here for months. If it takes a little heat to get a reaction, then perhaps so be it.
Cibbi
Glixzium: honestly i think i've been quite mild considering what i think about the dev team, or at least the ones who have these brilliant ideas (cause i know there are also capable people in there, but they get shadowed by these dumb stuff).
And just for the sake of explaining why the wording here, i tried to be constructive in multiple occasions with multiple removals-bugs-whatever, and straight up being ignored (like everyone else pretty much).
And since if i try to be constructive i get ignored, why should i do that? I prefer being honest with what i think, and what i wrote above reflects that.
Also i find this update inexcusable, since is not the removal itself that made me do this post (i knew it was going to happen the second we started using the self chairs), but the fact that to rush the "fix" for it they just caused more bugs, and considering that i found this bug in the first 3 minutes after updating and managed to undestand the causes of it in another 5 by pretty much just testing and reading the output log, it shows that they didn't even cared about testing stuff before releasing it. And this is just a disrespect not only for the creators that used the trick, but to everyone since it degrades everyone's experience. So why exactly should i treat them with gloves when i'm clearly not treated like that?
lin
Just remove chairs- you can use them to clip through the map and fly.
lin
Just remove [insert feature]- you can use them to clip through the map and fly
GotoFinal
lin: lets remove vrchat, or walls/map, if there will not walls, then no one will clip thru them.
K
Kinami
lin: you can do that with FBT
Bahka
Yes! Finally they removed this absolute game breaking exploit that was use in murder, thank you devs for your quick response. Now we can finally enjoy playing murder again 😊😘😊😊
(for ones who didn't get it, this is super satirical)
Parker Mitchell
I hope we can just revert these changes. I have a Kerbal avatar that used this seat "bug" to fly around. It fit the character well and just yesterday I had a ton of fun with that avatar flying around and getting into orbit of people. It has been a long time since I've laughed so hard, especially in a game.
And then I wake up this morning to them patching it out and breaking the avatar. Maybe instead they could be fixing actual game breaking exploits like the crash beam instead of ones like this that do nothing but make the game more fun? Maybe they should just embrace it and make flying avatars a feature.
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