chest trackers
complete
dmx512
there are a number of dance styles and activities that would have much better ik benefit with a dedicated chest tracker. please add support for chest trackers.
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Kung
complete
Just updating status now that IK2.0 isn't in beta. Also, there will likely be future incremental improvements to this. But as for initial implementation, this is complete.
Kung
available in future release
Introduced in build 11748
c
corncreon
I have 6 trackers, this lets me do "11-point" tracking. I use a chest tracker. I have spent hours looking at the behavior of IK with and without the chest tracker, and I can say with certainty that it looks better with the chest tracker. Please let us use a chest tracker in VRC without needing a mod!
If you like to dance and you have a well-proportioned avatar, dancing will look much better with a chest tracker.
I disable all locomotion in the animation controller in Unity, and wear trackers on feet, knees, waist, chest, and elbows. This setup gives the best looking FBT.
The lack of support for a chest tracker in IK update 2.0 is a big disappointment, please enable the chest tracker, thanks!!
FloydianSound
corncreon: ditto, i have 6 trackers and would love to use one of them for chest and 2 for upper arms or knees.
i'm fine with this being an option added later when the IK2Beta 8-10point is sorted out :)
Yahirgamingddd
yahirdejesus ican use full body
Flame Soulis
VRChat doing what VRChat does best: Copying everyone else's homework (Neos, Chillout, LIV, etc.) and doing a half assed job at it as well. Seriously, Tundra didn't include the big chest strap for show.
NotAKidoS
If this is implemented it might cause slight issues with existing locomotion layers which use TrackingType to decide locomotion animation/logic. As TrackingType uses a value of 3, 4, or 6 to signify amount of tracking points it would only be logical for TrackingType 5 to be VR with hip and chest tracker.
Custom locomotion layers may need the slightest touch up to not transition to FBT logic or dead end.
I know it’s unlikely VR+hip+chest combo would be implemented or desired but thought i’d bring it up.
Kung
interested
I'd like to see very specific and detailed discussion about precisely what people would expect a chest tracker to provide for them. If possible, avoid general descriptions such as "better IK". For example the discussion between Haï~ and knah about position, rotation, and specific dance moves, poses etc is useful. There are multiple ways this could be implemented, and for example, if allowing for full positional fidelity, slight proportional mismatch between avatar and IRL neck and head pivot will cause the avatar's neck to constantly look broken. Allowing for motion such as the dancing in Haï~'s gifs also means mismatched proportions can cause motion like that dancer even when users are trying to relax. Alternatively, while rotation-only tracking would allow more natural results on a wider range of avatar proportions, if a dancer expected pop-and-lock isolation level fidelity and bought a tracker for that purpose they might be disappointed.
TLDR: Please be very specific in your discussion about what you expect a chest tracker to provide.
knah
Kung: I shall plug the "just make an option for it" approach here.
You're certainly right that the more degrees of freedom are covered by trackers, the closer the avatar would have to match the user's real body in order to look correct.
As such, it might make sense to have an option for what exactly the chest tracker would do - users of less-well-matched avatars might prefer the simple rotation hint mode, whereas users of perfectly matched avatars might want the full-er mode that also considers positional data and full rotation.
I understand that options are perhaps not seen as user-friendly, but people who go deep enough into VR as a hobby to get a chest tracker on top of all other trackers surely can handle a bit of complexity and setup - especially if trying out the options is simple in-game and there's good documentation on what they do.
EDIT: this also applies to elbow tracker/shoulder situation - right now elbow trackers are used as a rotation hint, but they can be used for shoulders if placed on upper arm, as mentioned by Haï here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/allow-dancers-to-express-their-shoulders-using-osc-or-other-method-with-elbow-tr
Dj Lukis․LT
+1 to having both. Yes it is in demand and you cant get full fidelity without having proportions matching. Dancers are aware of that. Having toggles allows switching between their personal avatar setup and trying out new ones.
High-end setups cant be fit into one-size-fits all solutions
Kung
knah: Just throwing an idea out, but as a middle ground to avoid UI/option bloat while still giving the option, how do you (and anyone else reading this) feel about "Lock All" providing both positional and rotational fidelity for a chest tracker, while the other two modes are rotation only? "Lock All" is already kind of a "prone to breaking, better hope your proportions and pivot locations match IRL" mode as it is. And with the drifting allowed in the other two modes, strict positional tracking on the chest wouldn't really fit in anyway there.
(Note: this is all still in the zone of exploring how the community would hope to use a chest tracker, and isn't officially planned at this time)
knah
Kung: I'm on the side of option bloat here, and, as I mentioned in another comment, even locking modes could use a rework (I'm starting to think it deserves a separate canny post). I'd also argue for not combining options unnecessarily - hip/head locking is moderately unrelated to chest behaviour. There will be people out there that would want to get a behaviour that is not provided by combined options.
S a c r e d
I am 100% for having the options to toggle between rotation hint/locked for various parts of the body, such as hips, chest, head, knees and elbows. Having the upper arms locked with a tracker would mean that proper shoulder movement is possible, something which I was ready to use more trackers for.
I think that on a technical level, doing all of these things is possible. But, like Kung mentioned, it's going to be hard to keep it organized from a UI standpoint. I will throw a couple ideas at the wall here and see what people think:
- A toggle for "Simple" and "Advanced" tracker configuration. Simple would be like the current "Lock hips"/"Lock all" system. Few options, but the ones that are most relevant to most FBT users. Advanced mode would allow you to specify, on a per-limb basis, if the trackers should be rotation hints, or locked to the limbs. This could be done via a series of toggles, with the icons highlighting the parts of the body on the left half of the icon, and target/padlock icons on the right half. Alternatively, rather than a series of toggles, it could look more like a humanoid figure, with the toggles besides the corresponding joints, similar to Unity's Avatar Mask editing window.
- Rather than doing some of these things via the quick menu, what if you could directly point to the tracker spheres, and click (trigger) them to cycle their behavior? Once again, there could be target or padlock icons to represent the current behavior for each tracker.
- Not sure about this one, but there could be a floating menu (like the Quick menu, but locked in place) that shows up in front of the user once they enter FBT calibration mode. That could be where the user configures the behavior of the trackers, rather than through the quick menu (or could be in both, idk). The reasoning behind this one is that if you're going to be adjusting the behavior of the trackers, there's a very good chance that you'll have to re-calibrate anyways, so might aswell have the options when calibrating.
Would love to hear what you guys think of these ideas, and feel free to toss in your own.
knah
S a c r e d: I created a separate Canny post for "please give options" as suggested by Kung in the other thread, feel free to comment and upvote: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/provide-in-depth-ik-configuration-options-for-enthusiasts
Adeon Writer
That makes sense to me. If I'm choosing to only lock my head or hip, I'm already expecting the chest will drift out of necessity.
Kosyne
Kung: As others have said, I'm for option-bloat as well. Maybe another menu tab that only shows up if you're using trackers? Maybe a 'simple' and 'advanced' view?
Every person, avatar, and setup is different, so more nuance is very much a welcomed thing.
0mega1Spawn
Kung: Would a "Lock Chest" option work?
DragonSkyRunner
Kung: Going to add another to the "Just give us more options" tally. While I'm personally of the "There's no such thing as too many (relevant) options." opinion, if you're the type of person who's going to be getting a chest tracker, which is usually (though not always to clarify) last on the list of trackers to get, which by this point you're already 1000 leagues deep into the whole VR tracking and VR thing as a whole, the end user can handle having a few more toggle switches to specify how they want to have that tracker move around. If you MUST try and prevent 'UI bloat', then having a “Simple/Advanced” toggle to open up the actual breadth of options is the way to go.
As another thought to add to the pile, as all of the other responses have covered much of everything else I'd have to say,
A little utilized fact of VR is you can get away with a surprising amount of IRL to virtual mis-match in terms of how exactly the latter manipulates the former without it being any sort of problem for the end user. Of course if you can possibly help it you'd want the two to actually match properly, but with avatars of all sorts of non-human shapes and sizes, it might be a thought to also have the option (and STRICTLY a option, and absolutely NOT the default) to allow for some amount of offset when calibrating between the head/hands so instead of worrying about necks being dragged down and such, just let people deal with the slight mis-match of where their head is vs. their chest and hands/arms height wise and have the virtual arms 'below' the real ones a little, bringing the rest of the body down with it as well.
Can only push that so far of course, but a little bit of breathing room would be absolutely fine.
Haï~
It would be nice for a chest tracker to allow dancers to better express their upper body, but I think it's important to do it right, by not dismissing the chest as being merely a rotation hint.
IMO, the chest tracker should allow for the following dance movements (not exhaustive) to be expressed in VR.
knah
Haï~: that would be the best-case implementation indeed, but even a simple rotation hint for the time being is already nice to have
Haï~
knah: I think we are in agreement that there is a population who would be satisfied by a nice-to-have simple rotation hint (even considering the new behavior of the chest IK 2.0).
That said, I think it's worth noting there's a population of dancers currently expressing that they want chest tracker support (and voting on this canny), who would not be satisfied or even disappointed if VRChat adds support for a 11th tracking point which does not accomplish the sort of upper body expressions described in the above examples.
knah
Chest tracker is literally the same kind of VRIK bend goal as elbow/knee trackers, so implementing it is rather uncomplicated.
I myself saw little benefit from it when I implemented it in [redacted] (and that other game by extension), but I was surprised a the amount of people actually loving it - I guess people out there have real flexible bodies.
Lain_1wakura
knah: read this in your release notes in that game and never tried chestracker cuz of it. the day i did was lifechanging. glad to hear your coming around on this.
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