[11694] Spine twisting in lock head mode
complete
Rantis
I have noticed that the when using "lock head" mode in the new IK beta that the spine of some avatars will twist erratically.
I was told that this is due to some avatars hip root bone not being oriented up correctly as the new IK in lock head mode does not account for non zero hip rotation.
While it is good practice to have the hip bone oriented properly (as the SDK has been warning us about for years) this is the first instance of it affecting avatars in a tangible way. This will break years worth of content if not accounted for, some of which reuploading or remaking is not feasible, there are tens of thousands of avatars which have an inverted pelvis already in vrchat. I know my current base that I sell suffers from this and I do plan to make a patch to address this issue regardless, but it will not fix the 2 years worth of content people using my base have already made, it would also break existing animations that use the tail. I know that the rexorium base suffers from this issue as well as other popular base models.
Another issue that this change doesn't account for is non blender users. Maya for example has a different way of handling bone orientation than blender does and if a model needs to pass through both modeling suites a hip error like this can occur even if its accounted for in one of the programs.
While it could be a slight performance or accuracy hit to check for hip orientation on avatar load I feel it is a worthy sacrifice in the name of preservation.
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Kung
Merged in a post:
flipped hip will not work with IK locked to head
DrBlackRat
Avatars with a flipped hip (the old "IK Hack") will not work with tracking being locked to the head. This will result in the Avatars chest being at weird angles, rotated all around and in general just looking broken.
This is a huge issue since a lot of Avatars still use a flipped hip and for those people the new IK wiht it being locked to the head will just not work. I hope you guys can implement a fix for this.
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Kung
updated the status to
complete
This is fixed because the vector provided by the hip happened to no longer be useful. This was an accidental fix and in no way means that upside-down hips are officially supported. They maybe break again at any time. In any case, glad to be able to solve this issue for now.
hare_ware
Is VRC planning to keep the toggle to use the legacy IK? That seems like it would solve this issue if that choice is reflected over the network.
DrBlackRat
hare_ware: Yeah of course that would slove it. But that woudn't fix the problem that the new IK won't work.
DrBlackRat
This comes down to the Avatar having a flipped hip, this is an old IK "Hack" people used to, but shouldn't be done anymore (since a long time). Even though this shouldn't be done, it should still be considered to be fixed, since a lot of Avatars sadly still use this IK "Hack".
I also made a canny about this a bit earlier:
xantoz・ザントス
This also happens on an avatar with non-flipped hips, but with flipped upper leg bones.
Franada
What a good way to force people to upgrade to 3.0/not using rig hack. Break them.
DrBlackRat
Franada: Yeah, breaking old Avatars that are no longer maintained. And new ones for people who have no idea on how to fix it them self. Such a great thing...
MagnaLuna
DrBlackRat: aw yea. Let's use 4-5 years old unity 5.6.3p1 avatars and do backward compatibility with all avatars up to the birth of vrc. About rig hacks was said 2 years ago lol
M E R C
So many good avatars would beep boop out of usability. Would be a shame. I can think of quite a few bases this would affect. While I'm all for progress, I do wonder what, if anything, could be done.
OP_Buster
Thats a twisty spine, if one sees it.
knah
While rig hacks are obviously bad and unnecessary, supporting this specific hack can be done by virtually moving hip bone origin to between the leg bones - this restores it to proper full length and provides better-looking IK to boot.
Breaking most old avatars that still have this hack, and a bunch of new ones that have bad spine rigs that are similar enough (super short hip-spine distance/hip bone length) sounds rather suboptimal.
ZenithVal
They've been saying for the longest time to stop using rig hacks.
DrBlackRat
ZenithVal: Yeah ik, I'm also not the person who rigged the Rexouium Avatar. But the problem is that a tone of people still have Avatars with a flipped hip, this is why it should still be considered.
ByteByte-Baxi
DrBlackRat: how about you listen to the devs/ mods that own the platform you are using when they tell you STOP DOING THIS IT IS NOT SUPPORTED AND WE ARE NOT LIABLE FOR DAMAGES.
they have been telling you this for at least 2 years time to listen.
DrBlackRat
ByteByte-Baxi: I have not made this base model or rigged it. I know that we shouldn't use it....
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