[1220] Earmuff mode should be overwritten by custom Udon, not the other way around
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FairlySadPanda
Worlds have been built for over 18 months with the understanding of how the voice audio manipulation system works. In particular, PA systems lean on this feature. Thus the current Earmuffs implementation is a net negative for world creators.
Udon player audio manipulation should override Earmuffs, not the other way around. It is the responsibility of the world creator to not mess with player audio unless they specifically need to.
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Strasz - Community Team
We understand the frustration, but we don't really feel comfortable allowing world authors to overwrite accessibility features.
This is an issue we'll be trying to design around in the future. We're going to be doing some thinking on maybe some sort of toggle to allow users to let worlds override their Earmuff settings.
FairlySadPanda
Strasz - Community Team: No worries; this was always the likely response.
The solution here I think 100% is to a consent model with the user in final control, same as the toggle for unauthorized URLs.
(If we're talking 'features users really should not have the final say on', see: avatar chairs... :-) )
Nidonocu
Would it not be better to ask world makers to add a visual indicator to their worlds when a PA announcement is underway? Then people can choose to turn the earmuffs back off so they can hear the message.
Scout - VRChat Head of Quality Assurance
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FriendlyGaymer
Ahhh yes overriding an accessibility feature... Great idea...
FairlySadPanda
Seen a lot of back-and-forth on this request both here and elsewhere so I'm going to try and give a clear example of the problem, and why implementing the request is way better for everyone.
To be clear before I begin:
- Earmuffs is a great feature!
- World creators should not make bad worlds and will need to consider earmuff users going forwards!
By far the most important use of Udon audio overrides at the moment is for PA systems, where a speaker or speakers are on stage and there's some way to amplify the speaker's voice, usually via a range boost (and a gain decrease to make sure the range does not blow people's ears out).
A great use of earmuffs is to attend an event in a crowded instance, listen to some cool music and hang out with friends. Let's assume Alice joins an instance to hang out with her friend Barry, with Charity, the world creator, running the event. Alice doesn't like lots of chatter around her in VRC, so she sets her earmuffs setting to 2m, with an exterior audio of 0%. She wants to enjoy the club and talk to Barry, and maybe some other people in a conversation bubble, but otherwise hear the music clearly.
At the top of the hour, Charity uses the world's PA system to announce that the event is going to continue in a new instance, and folks need to take the portal to said instance.
Alice, because her exterior audio is at 0%, does not hear Charity. In fact, she can't hear any PA information - and depending on the event, that PA information could be important stuff ("don't run on stage", "use a performant avatar", "the DJ's computer just caught fire, she'll be back in a few minutes", etc).
What's Alice supposed to do here? She can't both have her earmuff settings how she likes them and hear the PA system. She has to turn up the exterior audio in case there is a PA announcement.
What's Charity supposed to do? There's no Udon hooks to detect earmuff mode being on or off, so she doesn't have a good way of knowing if her PA system is going to be audible by everyone. She has to implement a more complex alternate system, or have to manage earmuff users at events to make sure they heard important announcements, which takes time away from other event management duties.
To me, the obvious solution given infinite time and no technical restraints would be a system similar to the near culling distance settings:
- Earmuffs off
- Earmuffs on, but Udon can override if needed
- Earmuffs forced on with a warning that this might cause issues if the world was built with Udon player audio overrides.
This gives Alice total authority over their experience, and reduces Charity to only having to worry about "forced on" earmuff users, who are probably using the system for really important comfort reasons which ultimately trump a PA system or similar (rather than just because earmuff mode is just flatly superior to regular VRChat player audio settings).
This would break the feature out into a comfort setting (Earmuffs on) and an accessibility setting (Earmuffs forced on), and I think that makes the most logical and user-oriented feature.
If the above would take too long to implement, I think it is for the best to allow world creators to make sure people should or should not be heard as neccessary, and stick to the current VRChat ethos of "if the world sucks, people won't use it." If a world creator messes with player audio and makes it intolerable for people even with earmuffs on, then that world creator should get polite but firm feedback from users.
Lhun
FairlySadPanda: I'm really glad you spelled this out. This was the missing context that caused things to go pretty エモい
frostyfrog
FairlySadPanda: I feel that this should be added to the initial canny issue
Jewordi
This canny just seems like they are just thinking about themselves and not the people that may need it. It feels like big "my things are important" creator complex. Cant you just use a sign or something saying to turn off earmuff mode? The same way you do when the volume has to be set to a certain %.
Lhun
Edit:
recent discussions have brought me to rethink my reaction to this.
There's a time to discuss adding voice control features, but perhaps that's not now.
Joker is punk
Joker is punk
I support the assertion that a world creator should have the ability to supercede the earmuff feature if they
actively
choose to do that.Earmuff should default to being allowed for accessibility concerns, but as a world creator I really very much dislike losing all control over users' voices.
MisutaaAsriel
Joker is punk: Perhaps a middle ground: an override switch? By default Earmuffs could take precedence over Udon, but users could CHOOSE to allow worlds to take precedence with a checkbox?
Joker is punk
MisutaaAsriel: The problem is ultimately caused by world creators neglecting to manage voice distance in the first place. In all those cases, defaulting earmuffs to allowed would solve the problem.
In cases where the world creator chooses to put the care into managing voice distance, they should have the control they need to do it in the way that makes the experience work the way that fits their vision.
VRChat isn't just a hangout app. We're using it to pioneer new applications of VR like games, theater, and live-action roleplaying. Uses like that require the world creator to have enough control to guarantee that users are having a shared experience.
By taking that control, the world creator is also taking on the responsibility to make it a comfortable and accessible experience.
MisutaaAsriel
Joker is punk: I mean, yes. But we got to look at it from the "wheelchair ramp perspective" — Going to get metaphorical here. — When you make wheelchair ramps optional, or when you allow the business owner to decide when and how they are placed, and don't enforce any other means of accessibility
inside
an establishment, then most are either not
going to have ramps, or the ramps will be poorly placed and hinder their actual function.In the same sense, Earmuffs, first and foremost, is a safety and accessibility feature. Whilst many talented devs may have legitimate need for their Udon to take precedence,
there is the very real possibility that doing so would cause an influx of world creators,
with no need for messing with audio
, effectively canceling out Earmuff's functionality by Udon
, just because they "don't like it" or "think it's stupid".There's a very real abuse vector here.
However
, if you were to allow
users themselves to opt-in to Udon taking precedence, this would mean users who need this feature would have full control; World requires Udon to take precedence? Toggle the feature. World too crowded or you're being harassed from afar? Toggle it again.Additionally, for worlds that
absolutely
need to control player voices, perhaps this would be better resolved with SDK additions
— Namely, perhaps a form of "VRC Audio Broadcast Zone" (kinda like what AltSpace uses) which would allow players in the zone to have their voice adjusted, and a companion "VRC Audio Broadcast Source", which would then play that player audio from the source, rather than from the player's position.Essentially, a walkie-talkie component which would play audio from a specified source that is exempt from Earmuffs, rather than exempting Earmuffs worldwide.
Joker is punk
MisutaaAsriel: I appreciate your analogy, as real-world regulations requiring accessibility for businesses and public spaces are a real social good.
I don't think the analogy applies here. What we're talking about here is a default where the world has the accessibility already. Creators would need to spend energy and resources to remove it. In the real world the situation is the opposite.
I very much do not think systemic neglect or abuse would result from this. The vast majority of VRChat worlds will remain safe and accessible.
FairlySadPanda
Joker is punk: Also to state this, in the extreme, if some cabal of world creators came together and decided to totally override earmuffs or mess with the settings, it seems extremely likely that the community would vote with their feet and go elsewhere.
Earmuffs is a great feature. It messes up any Udon script that is written assuming players were not able to mess with voice falloff range. These are both true, and the mitigation is to allow Udon to override earmuff features so that users get earmuffs and still get to hear the stuff they are supposed to to enjoy a world experience, either with live theatre or just a PA system.
Strange Petals
Having had it now, I could not disagree more. I like having the ability to hear people properly in a instance and not fumble asking people to repeat themselves over n over again due to my autism. A world creator can give us a good reason to turn it off.
Strange Petals
You forget that these updates coming from VRChat now are not about world creators, but those who need accessibility options. I did not even know i needed this tell yesterday tbh for my autism since i did not use mods.
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